Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #403
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Fri, 10 Dec 93 03:13:14 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #403, Volume #1                Fri, 10 Dec 93 03:13:14 EST

Contents:
  Re: Yet another benchmark results.. (Dragon Fly)
  Re: Yet another benchmark results.. (Warner Losh)
  Re: Who is the typical Linux user? (Chris Flatters)
  Re: Security (Christopher Wingert)
  libm.a problem- sources? (Superuser)
  Re: Jana CDs shipped in November? (Ernest Leuenberger)
  Re: Why is comp.os.linux still around? (Gert Doering)
  Re: Security (Thomas Koenig)
  Re: Motif for Linux ("S.A.Matsoukis")
  Re: Linux T-shirt (Chris Callanan)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Mark Line)
  Re: Call for linux sources (Mark Line)
  linux ? (Bert Sager)
  RE : Jana CD-ROM (Jana)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.os.vms,comp.benchmarks,relcom.talk,relcom.fido.su.general
From: viznyuk@mps.ohio-state.edu (Dragon Fly)
Subject: Re: Yet another benchmark results..
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 00:26:23 GMT

    Notwithstanding possible critique from alleged
computer specialists the insightful observer might note
that the "benchmark" code is pretty typical for scientific
calculations. Whatever other merits the system might have,
if it's dragging its feet on this test it means the system
from the point of view of consumer [insightful observer] is
a crap. As many insightful observers probably have already
noticed, the crap is being limited mainly to two mainstreams:
SUN Sparcs and DECs running VMS.

I excluded the benchmarks obtained on boxes with unknown
specifications.
As of today the accumulated results are:
 
 - - - - - - - - Original code - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 #include <stdio.h>
 #include <math.h>
 #include <time.h>
 main()
 {
 double  x,y[1000000];
 int     i;
 time_t  t;
  
 time(&t);
 for (i=0;i<1000000;i++)
       {
       x=11.0+(33.5*i)*(33.5*i);
       y[i]=(sin(3.1*i)+cos(5.1*i))*sqrt(x+exp(3.14*log(x+i)));
       }
 printf("time=%d\n",time(0)-t);
 }
 - - - - - - - - - - - - Cut here - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
      Computer                             Time spent
  
 486DX2-66 EISA/VL 16Mb RAM
 running Linux (Slackware 1.1.0).
 gcc -O3 -o bench bench.c -lm
 Single user                               27 sec.
 
 486DX2-66
 AMI Enterprise III VL/EISA m/b with 32MB ram
 Linux 0.99pl14
 gcc 2.4.5.
 Standalone machine.                       27 sec.

 486DX2-66 ISA/VL 16Mb RAM 256K Cache
 MS-DOS
 MicroWay NDPC 4.30 -n2 -n3 -OLM -exp      25 sec

 486DX50 ISA 8Mb RAM, 256K cashe
 running Debian Linux 0.81BETA
 4  users                                  59 sec.
 single user                               54 sec.

 486DX-33
 64Kb read cache
 16 megs memory
 Single user, only program running.        53 sec.

 486DX-33                                  59 sec.
 running Linux (pl13 kernel)
 16MB RAM

 486DX-33 ISA 8Mb RAM
 running Linux
 Single user, but many Windows,
 Swapping heavily                          94 sec. real, 58 sec. CPU

 486DX2-66 ISA/VL 32Mb RAM
 running NextStep 3.2
 gcc compiler.
 Multiple User                             32 sec.

 486DX2-66 VLB Clone, 16M, 256k cache      45 sec.
 running OS/2 2.1
 gcc -O2 -m486 yab.c -o yab.exe

 SUN Sparc-10
 SunOS 4.1.3A                              30 sec.

 SUN Sparc-2 with >= 16 Mb RAM
 running SunOS
 Single user                               69 sec.
   
 SUN Sparc-IPX                             74 sec.

 SUN-4
 running SunOS
 Single user                               73 sec.
   
 VAX 3100/80
 running VMS
 Other users, but not much going on        182 sec.

 DEC VAX 6630
 running VMS                               79 sec.

 IBM RS6000/model 530
 running AIX 3.2.2
 RAM: 50mb
 single user                               13 sec.
   
 IBM RS6000/model 320
 running AIX 3.2.2
 RAM: 20mb
 single user                               16 sec.
   
 IBM RS6000/model 550
 running AIX 3.2.2
 RAM: 90mb
 single user                               7 sec.
  
 IBM RS6000 320
 running AIX 3.2.5
 Other users, but not much going on        18 sec.
 
 IBM RS6000 530
 running AIX 3.2.5
 Other users, but not much going on        13 sec.
  
 IBM PowerServer 520, 32 Mb RAM
 RS/6000 Chip
 running AIX 3.2.3e
 compilation in Background                 30 sec. real, 16 sec. CPU

 IBM PowerStation 320H, 32 Mb RAM
 RS/6000 Chip
 running AIX 3.2.3e
 single user                               12 sec. real, 12 sec. CPU

 IBM PowerServer 560, >32 Mb RAM
 RS/6000 Chip
 running AIX 3.2.5
 single user                               7 sec. real, 7 sec. CPU

 HP Apollo
 running HP-UX 9.0                         16 sec.

 HP/PA 720 HPUX 9.01 64 Meg RAM            10 sec
 HP/PA 735 HPUX 9.01 64 Meg RAM            5 sec

 Hp-735 64 MB ram, pretty much idle,
 2 users HPUX 9.01                         3.9 sec

 SGI 4D/35TG (MIPS R3000 based) 48Mb RAM   21 sec.
 running Irix 4.0.5C
 Single user
 
 SGI Onyx/4 (4xR4400/150 MIPS CPUS)        10 sec.
 128 Mb RAM
 Single user
 
 SGI Indigo, 32 Mb RAM
 running IRIX 4.0.5.
 multiuser but idle
 cc -O2 bench.c -o bench -lm               10 sec.

 DEC Alpha AXP 150Mhz
 OSF1 1.2
 Multiuser mode                            7 sec

 DEC 3000 Model 400
 Single user                               9 sec.

 DECPc AXP 150 (6.6ns pass 2.1 EV4), 32mb RAM
 OpenVMS AXP V2-FT3
 Single User, DECnet, Motif                11 sec.
 Single User, No DECnet, No Motif          10 sec.

 DEC 3000-400 (6.6ns pass 2.1 EV4) 128mb RAM
 OpenVMS AXP V1.5
 Single User, DECnet, Motif                9 sec.

 DEC 4000/710 with 256MB of memory.
 DEC OSF/1 1.3 12 users, load avg 1.0
 cc -O3 viz.c -lm -non_shared              6 sec.

 - - - from another correspondent - - 
 I had to modify the code:
 
 double  x,*y;
 int     i;
 time_t  t;
 
 y = (double *) malloc (1000000 * sizeof(double));
 
 The DEC compiler didn't like the large array.
 
 DEC 5000/240 Ultrix 4.3 (load=0.11)        17 sec.
 
 DEC 5000/200 Ultrix 4.2 (load=0.00)        26 sec.
 
 SPARCstation 10/30 Solaris 2.2 (load=0.02) 47 sec.
 
 SPARCstation 10/42 Solaris 2.2 (load=0.20) 52 sec.
 
 
 - - - - - - from another correspondent - - - - - - - - - 
 
 I had to make the declaration of y global to prevent a segmentation
 violation on the DEC Alpha I ran it on.
 
 DEC 3000 Model 500                        6.7 s (avg. of 10 runs)
 DEC OSF/1 1.3
 Multi-user mode, one user logged in
 cc -O3 -o bench bench.c -lm -non_shared
 





 Serge

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.os.vms
From: imp@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh)
Subject: Re: Yet another benchmark results..
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 22:39:30 GMT

In article <mcdonald.934.2D075A5F@aries.scs.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald) writes:
>Yes, indeed . This means that it measures the ACTUAL time the program takes.
>This is what ACTUALLY MATTERS to the user.

True, but misleading.  You can't compare times between machines if you
use wall time and there is other activity on the system.  It is like
comparing apples and oranges.  They are two different things.  Since
this program did NO I/O, CPU time is a much better representation of
how fast the machine runs.

If you use wall time on a system where other things are happening,
that introduces variables that are hidden dependancies which in
staticital terms make your results meaningless.

I got this great benchmark that makes my pdp-8 seem faster than a
Sparc-10. :-)

Finally, a quote:
"       There are five kinds of lies:  Lies, damn lies,statistics,
benchmarks and release dates" -- unknown from Mark Twain.

Warner
-- 
Warner Losh             imp@boulder.parcplace.COM       ParcPlace Boulder
I've almost finished my brute force solution to subtlety.

------------------------------

From: cflatter@nrao.edu (Chris Flatters)
Subject: Re: Who is the typical Linux user?
Date: 09 Dec 1993 23:21:10 GMT

In article <1993Dec8.075739.11499@fylz.com> phil@fylz.com (Phil Hughes LJ Editor) writes:
   In one to two years I think the population will be much less technical
   with tens of thousands of people moving from MS-DOS to Linux
   because Linux offers more functionality and at a lower cost.
   Some of these people won't really know much about Linux itself but
   will pick it because it will do their job.  I also see a large
   increase in the number of commercial uses of Linux systems.  This
   will include imbedded applications as well as a platform for
   scientific and commercial applications.

Wishful thinking, I'm afraid.  PCs sold today generally include MS-Dos
(or a clone) and MS Windows as part of the kit and this is likely to
continue into the indefinite future (most novice users will buy
machines with a bunch of software preloaded) so the cost of
DOS/Windows will not be perceived as an issue.  Non-technical DOS
users will not switch to Linux unless there is some clear reason to do
so and most won't see any such reason (I would guess most of them just
want to run Quicken and TurboTax and games for the kiddies).  Pretty
much the same argument will hold for many commercial DOS/Windows users
(with the additional argument that they may have already made fairly
large investment in DOS/Windows software).

Linux users will probably continue to fall into three main groups.

1 - Programmers and hobbyists.

2 - Students in computing related areas.

3 - Technical users with scientific or technical backgrounds who
    use workstations at work and want something similar at home
    but don't want to pay for a RISC workstation.

There will be a few commercial users (I have heard of an outfit
using Linux boxes to offer a commercial Internet service) but
probably not that many.

        Chris Flatters
        cflatter@nrao.edu

------------------------------

From: crw@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com (Christopher Wingert)
Subject: Re: Security
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 22:50:48 GMT

In article <2e7i9eINN2tck@rs1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE> truemper@fileserv1.MI.Uni-Koeln.DE (Winfried Truemper) writes:
>In article <2e53si$hbk@jacobs.jacobs.mn.org>, root@jacobs.mn.org (Mike Horwath) writes:
>|> Mathias Koerber (mathias@solomon.technet.sg) wrote:
>|> : Ok, that might work for some users. I am thinking of installations, where
>|> :   a) many people should have access to that PC as normal users
>|> :   b) they are encouraged to use floppies for backup etc.
>|> 
>|> : I want to protect the system against booting from floppy (not actually bad in
>|> : itself) or moreover against other prople mounting the root filesystem
>|> : from other OS'es they boot.
>|> 

>|> this can be accomplished with current AMI bios' by setting a password to
     VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
>|> get into the bios and YOU set the bios to boot off of C: and ignore A:
>|> for booting.  Should be in the Advanced CMOS settings.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|> 
>
>
>Hi folks,
>
>its really useless to upgrade the bios in order to get the bios protected
>since there is a DOS program called "amisetup". The program allows reading 
>and changing every entry in the CMOS-RAM very comfortabel, even the 
>password.
>
>Its availiable via ftp, for example on "ftp.Uni-Koeln.DE" under 
>"pc/msdos/dosutils/amise210.zip".
>
>Winfried

First you got to boot dos, before you can run a dos program..  :)


-- 

                                    Regards,
                                        Christopher

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| San Francisco, n.:                                                           |
|     Marcel Proust editing an issue of Penthouse.                             |
|                 --fortune .signature Shell Version 1.0                       |
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|         Christopher R. Wingert                   Programmer / Analyst        |
| Christopher.Wingert@TorreyPinesCA.ncr.com    Direct Phone (619) 597-3533     |
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: root@fusion.cuc.ab.ca (Superuser)
Subject: libm.a problem- sources?
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 01:08:41 GMT

Hello-

I'm getting some "interesting" problems with the exp() and pow()
functions in my existing libm.a (which dates back from SLS 1.02
0.99pl9).  The specific problem is that the exp(), pow() and pow2()
functions die with "floating point exception" unless there is a
moderate load on the system.  All other functions (eg cos(), sin(),
tan(), sqrt(), etc) seem to work fine regardless of the system load.
Anyone with any explanations??

Can anyone direct me to the sources for the math library libm.a?
Alternately, can someone encode and mail me a working copy of libm.a
that is compatible with gcc 2.3.3?

Thanks,
c4



-- 
Christopher Lau- "Mr. Unix"    |     /       Fusion: Playing With Fire!
StarBright Research            |    / /      H + H -> He + 24 MeV
            --                 |   /_/_/_    "Bring back Trudeau!"
root,lauc@fusion.cuc.ab.ca     |____________ "This space for rent"

------------------------------

From: ernestl@bnr.ca (Ernest Leuenberger)
Subject: Re: Jana CDs shipped in November?
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 23:50:48 GMT
Reply-To: ernestl@bnr.ca

I sent an email to Jay directly last night with my mailing address and got 
an answer this morning saying that he would mail me a CD.

Jay also said that the jana.com addresses has not worked for the past week.

I would urge any one that has not received his/her CD yet to email Jay 
you real address. Here is the address I reached him at:
 
3179690@QUCDN.QueensU.c  


Ernest.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux
From: gert@greenie.muc.de (Gert Doering)
Subject: Re: Why is comp.os.linux still around?
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 22:11:32 GMT

hwrvo@usho42.hou281.chevron.com (W.R.Volz) writes:

>You can't make this news group go away, unless there is something about
>the news server that I don't know (which is quite possible). All the
>other C.O.L news groups are rooted in this one. The actual articles are
>stored in directories that are formed by replacing the '.' with a '/'.

Rubbish. Even if a upper level directory exists, it still has to be in the
"active" file for articles to go there. If you remove c.o.l from "active", 
all articles posted there will go to "junk".

gert
-- 
I've got a signature breakdown! Anybody got a spare one?

Gert Doering - Munich, Germany                             gert@greenie.muc.de
fax: +49-89-3243328                         gert.doering@physik.tu-muenchen.de

------------------------------

From: ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
Subject: Re: Security
Date: 10 Dec 1993 02:05:27 GMT

rda@eng.cam.ac.uk (R.D. Auchterlounie) writes:

>If you wipe DOS off your hard disk and the floppy booting is disabled in the 
>BIOS which is then password protected... how the **** is this program going 
>to make any difference ?

Next question: how are you going to make sure that nobody exchanges
the BIOS for another one, if they have physical access to the machine?
It's marginally less likely that somebody has a hard disk with a
SUN bootstrap in his pocket than a few BIOS chips, I agree ;-)
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.

------------------------------

From: sam@tomcat.demon.co.uk ("S.A.Matsoukis")
Subject: Re: Motif for Linux
Date: 9 Dec 93 18:37:13 GMT
Reply-To: Sam@tomcat.demon.co.uk

In article <1993Dec6.230648.13185@dmi.stevens-tech.edu> arifi@dmi.stevens-tech.edu writes:

>
>Hi !
>
>Could someone please send me the place from where I
>can get Motif for Linux from ?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>Arifi
>

Hi,

I purchased motif 1.2 (run+dev) for Linux (pl13) from:

  Linux Systems Labs
  18300 Tara Dr.
  Clinton Twp.
  Michigan 48036

  (US) 800-432-0556   or   +1-313-954-2829

I've had no problems. (so far :)
Only bad news is USD 150 + shipping.

Hope this helps.

-- 
#
# S.A.Matsoukis
# sam@tomcat.demon.co.uk
# ADP (Stockley Park, London)

------------------------------

From: ccallana@netcom.com (Chris Callanan)
Subject: Re: Linux T-shirt
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1993 03:42:18 GMT

Mike Batchelor (mikebat@netcom.com) wrote:
: I sent my order for the Linux T-shirt near the end of September, to the
: address in the c.o.l.a post made at that time.  The check cleared my bank
: on October 3.  I have yet to receive my t-shirt.  I have mailed Charles
: Stephens three times already (cfs@next.neuro.emory.edu), but there has
: been no response, no bounced mail.  The order form says to wait 4-6
: weeks.  It has been 10 weeks now.

: Has anybody got their T-shirts yet?
: Has anybody gotten Charles to respond to e-mail?
: Can anyone help me track down my T-shirt?!  I want to show off my
: affection for Linux! :)

: --
: Mike Batchelor      |
: mikebat@netcom.com  |                  This space for rent
: mikebat@qdeck.com   |
-- 
ccallana@farad.elee.calpoly.edu  | Chris Callanan      | Workstation Support 
ccallana@tuba.aix.calpoly.edu    | Computer Engineer   | IBM - STL 
ccallana@polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu | Cal Poly            | San Jose, CA   
ccallana@netcom.netcom.com       | San Luis Obispo, CA | use linux   

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:25:15 GMT

wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) writes:

>You completely miss the point.  The problem is not publishing reviews.
>The problem is giving pompous, official-looking "Stamps of Approval".
>They may not be meant to be pompous and official-looking, but that's
>what they are.  Forget the approval business and the whole thing starts
>sounding reasonable.

Which is more pompous and official-looking, Stamps of Approval, as you
call them, or real, live, screen-printed CD-ROMs sold for real money
and containing the word 'Linux' on the medium, in the offline docs (if
there are any), and in all associated press releases? I'd say it's
pretty official-looking for a CD-ROM to have 'Linux' printed right on
the disk, wouldn't you? Is it pompous? That depends on quality. While
it may be pompous for somebody to *pretend* to offer a quality
product, it is certainly not pompous for them to actually do so.

Are Stamps of Approval pompous and official-looking? 

Yes, they *look* just as official as the CD-ROMs the distributors are
selling and they *look* just as official as the press releases we see
in the mags. And as we all know, they are *in reality* all equally
unofficial. (So what's your gripe?)

Pompous? We can apply the same criterion as above. If the Stamps of
Approval only *pretend* to represent high-quality information, then
they're pompous. It would certainly not be pompous for them to do
actually do so.

So how can you try to make sure that these Stamps of Approval are not
just pompous cant and *do* represent high-quality information? Why
don't you ask Magnus if you can help with the testing, as I have done?
No time? Neither have I. We both have to utilize a rift in the
space-time continuum, as usual.

>There's no problem in having a group of people do reviews together.  In
>fact, it's a good idea --- you get much more experience into the review.
>The latest name suggestion I've seen, "Linux Review Group", still sounds
>too official to me; I'd prefer if the word Linux didn't apprear in the name
>at all.  In fact, I don't think a name is needed in the first place,
>because the group would probably work better as just a group and not an
>organization.

As I've implied above: As long as people sell distributions with
'Linux' written all over them, I think it is only fair to the LC's
target audience to have Linux in the organization's name also. If the
distributors wish to distribute something nameless and not purporting
to be a Linux distribution, then the organization might be able to
consider being nameless and not purporting to evaluate Linux
distributions.

The bottom line of all this: Why should a group of people be able to
form an organization to distribute Linux & Co. for money
(official-looking and with occasional pomposity when the product is
technially garbage), but not be able to form an organization to
evaluate such distributions in an equally official-looking manner?

-- Mark

====================================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: Call for linux sources
Date: 10 Dec 93 03:36:38 GMT

cjs@netcom.com (Christopher Shaulis) writes:

>burnett@baldrick.cecer.army.mil (Andy Burnett) writes:

>>  I am starting up a linux ftp site, but I want to carry only sources (no
>>bins) of packages that compile cleanly under linux.  If you have a
>>favorite linux program and have the source for it, please upload it.  The
>>site is topquark.cecer.army.mil:/pub/Linux.  You can upload into the
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>pub/Linux/Incoming directory.  This machine is a 486/33 running pl14.  Let
>>me know if you have any problems connecting or uploading & downloading.

>Check out that FTP address.. Military.. Talk about cutting back on your 
>military spending! I can already see Uncle Sam selling off a couple 
>hundred thousand SCO licenses infavor of a Yggdrasil CD. It even gives
>Linux a rally song..

[weak attempt at lyrical humor deleted]
...

Sometimes you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. For those
who are interested: .mil doesn't necessarily always imply tanks and
Desert Storm. The topquark site is at a research laboratory of the
Corps of Engineers in Illinois. Used any hydroelectric power lately?
Prefer nuclear? That's DOE, they use .gov -- *much* better... Besides,
that lab has made the single most important public domain contribution
to the field of geographic information processing. It even runs on
Linux, thanks to Andy Burnett.

Just thought you might like to know. Advice to Christopher Shaulis:
open mouth, remove foot.

-- Mark

====================================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: Bert.Sager@f155.n514.z17.mtlnet.org (Bert Sager)
Subject: linux ?
Date: 5 Dec 93 22:29:51 GMT

can somebody please tell me if linux runs all dos's .exe?
if yes, does it work as well as Unix, what's diffs?
where can i get it????
 thanx


... I know a good tagline when I steal one.

------------------------------

Subject: RE : Jana CD-ROM
From: jana@canrem.com (Jana)
Date: Thu,  9 Dec 93 22:33:00 -0400

Hello All,

   Well well, its Mr.Ernest again. When he flaimed me on the net I sent
him a E-Mail asking him to send me his address so I can correct my
database and send him a CD. The address arrived to me by E-Mail 2 weeks
later (Yesterday ). Also I have a 800 number which he could have used to
call me. But he did not. I have told 1000 times on the net that my
@jana.com address is having some problems, infact for the past 7 - 8
days I have not been abel to get my mail.

   When we mailed the CD's out I admit that we made a mitake by using a
reguler envolpe to send the CD. Beucase of this CD cases broke and some
shipmentd did not go through. So I posted on the net asking people if
thay have not got the CD, E-Mail to linux@jana.com and some people did
and we are mailing them a new CD.

   As a subscriber every one is geting a best price on the linux CD. For
less then $10.00, you get a CD, S/H included and tech suport from Morse
Telecom while you are on the subscription. The tech suport alone is
worth $19.95 a month. The upcoming CD's will be made by Morse Telecom
and sold for about 20 -

------------------------------


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