Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #412
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sat, 11 Dec 93 19:13:11 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #412, Volume #1                Sat, 11 Dec 93 19:13:11 EST

Contents:
  Re: Yet another benchmark results.. (Anatoly.Lisovsky@kamaz.kazan.su)
  RE: Re: Linux Consortium (Louis J. LaBash Jr.)
  Re: Yet another benchmark results.. (Todd Walk)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Damien Neil)
  Info on gcc assembler ? (Dragon Fly)
  What Tape Backup to buy for DOS and LINUX? (John Jamulla)
  Printed LDP manuals? (was Re: A Linux Users Manual) (Matt Welsh)
  Default font for X (Steve Schoeneman)
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (Cameron L. Spitzer)
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (Ross Edwin Robinson)
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (John Comyns)
  Re: Shareware Linux For PC (Brett Person)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Mark Line)
  The Great Linux Debate(s) (Jim Gifford)
  Re: How to nuke C.O.L without killing C.O.L.* (Cory West)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Anatoly.Lisovsky@kamaz.kazan.su
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.os.vms,comp.benchmarks,relcom.talk,relcom.fido.su.general
Subject: Re: Yet another benchmark results..
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 93 14:48:08 +0300
Reply-To: Anatoly.Lisovsky@kamaz.kazan.su

In
    comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.os.vms,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.benchmarks,relcom.talk,relcom.fido.su.general
    article <10DEC199309254885@almach.caltech.edu> Timothy D. Shoppa x
    writes:

>
>The allegation that the wall time is what matters only shows that the person
>proposing the use of wall times has never even been involved with serious
>scientific computation. 
>
Stop flame, please!!! :-)
It's not technical problem, it's medical one.
Our modern Fantomas ("Dragon Fly") wanted to fool others that
his poor PC with pseudo-UNIX is best solution. :-)
May be his poor mother dropped him from 10'th floor,
so he still want to show others that he anyway is SuperMan. :)
What is the English for "Complex Nepolnotsennosti"?


-- 
Anatoly M. Lisovsky, KAMAZ Inc., General Economics Department, STAR division
============ The Network is The Computer. Per Aspera ad Sun! ===============



------------------------------

From: lou@minuet.siue.edu (Louis J. LaBash Jr. )
Subject: RE: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 11 Dec 1993 13:04:36 -0500
Reply-To: lou@minuet.siue.edu (Louis J. LaBash Jr. )

|From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
|Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
|Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 04:12:31 GMT

|In article <1993Dec11.023503.4507@henson.cc.wwu.edu> markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line) writes:
|>mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh) writes:
[deleted...]
|Most Linux users aren't native English speakers.

I use Linux and speak American, a *distinct* dialect of English.  I'm not
saying this to be chauvinistic.  This group consist of many people whose
mother tongues are'nt English, or one of its derivatives.

Louis-ljl-

------------------------------

From: walk@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Todd Walk)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.os.vms,comp.benchmarks,relcom.t
Subject: Re: Yet another benchmark results..
Date: 11 Dec 1993 18:11:04 GMT

bmork@opus-ovh.spk.wa.us (Brian) writes:

>walk@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Todd Walk) writes:

>> Accuarate benchmarking is something that the Federal Government
>> spends millions of $$$ on for grants to university professors
>> who then work for YEARS refining test suites.

>Tests by the federal government for $$$.  Boo.  Last year I read of the
>high school graduate SAT scores.  A certain class of people scored
>too low (women vs men, but please don't turn this into a social thread).
>The governmental statement?  The test must be changed because what
>we already "know to be true" (class1=class2) wasn't supported by
>the test.

>I balked at the phrase "refining test suites."  This sounds like tweaking
>the test until the "right" answers come out!

"refining test suites" means making large statistical studies on
the instruction types used for different common problem types and
changing the test suite to conform to it.  It has nothing to do
with changing things until you get the results you want and 
everything to do with getting good relative performance differences
between computers for running REAL WORLD programs.

BTW, computer testing is MUCH more straightforward than human testing.

--
                                        Todd Walk
                                        walk@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu


------------------------------

From: damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu (Damien Neil)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 11 Dec 1993 19:00:18 GMT

In article <1993Dec10.231123.230@earlham.edu>,  <andrewh@earlham.edu> wrote:

>I think Linux needs a marketing strategy if it's going to survive and
>continue to prosper.

Out of curiosity, why? Many people seem to be concerned about making
Linux ``survive and prosper''. The solution proposed is always to make
more people use Linux.  How does this help? What happens if new people
stop using Linux? Linus's profits will not go down -- he makes no
profit now, other than a few donations. Maybe the companies that
package and sell Linux will fold, but they are not Linux.

The one thing that Linux lives and dies by are its developers. People
like Linus who invest their time to make Linux better for others. 
These people are not in it for the money -- the only thing they
receive for their work is popularity, and a hell of a lot of flames.
``Make this better.'' ``Do this some other way.'' ``Make it work with
my system.'' Personally, I'm amazed that any of them are still left!

In the past, Linux was used only by hackers, since it was not stable
enough yet for ordinary users. Now, for better or worse, more and
more people, some of them ignorant about UN*X, are beginning to use
it. Many people seem to start using Linux, learn a little about it,
and immediately begin trying to covert the whole world to using
Linux as well.

This is not necessarily bad, but some of these people have come to
view Linux as belonging to them in some way. They want to do
something to help, but are inable of helping with development,
through lack of technical knowledge. So, they decide to go into
management, instead. The only problem is that there is no
management involved with Linux; this is one of the reasons
many developers spend so much time on it. There is no boss
breathing down everyone's neck, making policy decisions despite
a complete ignorance of the technical issues involved.

If people change this system, many developers may decide that
Linux just isn't fun any more. (I am reminded of the post from
a few days back where someone said users would ``take things into
their own hands'' if developers did not do what he wanted them
to. What an ominous statement!) Remember what happened to Ross
Biro. He became tired of the flames and the complaints...and he
left. He stopped working on Linux. He didn't quit a job -- he
stopped volunteering. There was nothing anyone could do about
it, and all the flamers were left with *nothing*.

Linux developers have given us a wonderful thing. I am very,
very grateful to them for it. And I hope like hell that they
won't become so discouraged with the people who aren't that
they follow Ross and leave. Because that, not lack of popularity,
is what would kill Linux.
-- 
Damien Neil  [MIME OK]   CMPS/EEAP  "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu       I can do is a quick patch here and there."
  dpn2@po.cwru.edu  Case Western Reserve University         - Erik Green

------------------------------

From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Dragon Fly)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Info on gcc assembler ?
Date: 11 Dec 93 12:35:40 -0500

I found gcc assembler to be much different
from Microsoft assembler for DOS. Could anybody
recommend me the source of information on the
gcc assembler ?

Thanks,
Serge

------------------------------

From: jamulla@iao.ford.com (John Jamulla)
Subject: What Tape Backup to buy for DOS and LINUX?
Date: 11 Dec 1993 20:50:37 GMT
Reply-To: jamulla@cadcam.pms.ford.com


I have been wondering what type of tape backup I should buy
which I could use for both LINUX and DOS without and real trouble.

One thing that complicates my matter is that I'm not sure if you
can have a SCSI controller and an ESDI controller in the same
machine. Does anyone know this.

A guy at Microsoft thought you could have an ESDI and  SCSI in the
same machine, you must boot from the ESDI though. Is this true?

So What I'm needing to know is whether I should get a scsi tape
backup, or get one that uses the floppy controller etc.

Does anyone recommend a good tape backup right now for LINUX itself?

Thanks, 
_________________________________________________________________________
John D. Jamulla  Westland, MI 48185   USA    jamulla@cadcam.pms.ford.com
PROFS:JJAMULLA   PRIMEMAIL:JAMULLA -ON D1D1  Work:(313)337-9951
Ford Motor Co.- Car Prod. Devel., P&MS, CAD/CAM Dept., Dearborn, MI 48121

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin
From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Printed LDP manuals? (was Re: A Linux Users Manual)
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 21:00:53 GMT

In article <CHw0vA.IBn@world.std.com> entropy@world.std.com (Lawrence Foard) writes:
>Is the Linux documentation going to be released in a printed form?

One of these days, yes. The LDP would like to find a publishing
company (perhaps just a small printing house) to print copies of the
LDP manuals and distribute them via mail order (international and
credit card orders a must). Distribution in bookstores would be nice,
too, but I don't expect that as much. The LDP manuals are freely
distributable, so anyone is permitted to print and distribute verbatim
copies. Great profit margin benefits at that; I don't ask for
royalties when someone sells copies of my book.

If any publishers or publishing companies out there are reading this
message, feel free to get in touch with me. (Phone number appended to
this article). I imagine that sometime in the not-too-distant future 
there will be a bona fide Linux book published, and I'd like to speak 
to any publishing companies that might be interested (or that might be
currently working on such a project) so we can sync up our efforts. 
However, for now, the LDP manuals will suffice.

BTW, as I have said elsewhere, the next version of ``Linux
Installation and Getting Started'' (should be available within a
couple of weeks) will be a general installation and new-user guide for
"any" distribution of Linux. It will no longer be specific to SLS. 
So, if you are a Linux software distributor (say, you sell a Linux
CD-ROM via mail order), and would like to bundle your distribution
with a printed installation and new-user guide, I encourage you to use
the I&GS for this purpose (after all, that's one of the reasons it was
written!). I'll also be willing to tailor the guide to be specific for
your distribution of Linux, or to write a short distribution-specific
supplement explaining how to install your release (with a more general
discussion being left to the I&GS). The problem with the I&GS being
general for any distribution is that the instructions aren't as
in-depth or specific; however, along with a distribution-specific
installation supplement the I&GS should work well as an installation
guide. 

I have entirely rewritten the first 3 chapters, and revised several
of the appendices. The I&GS continues to improve, and I'd like to see
distributors using it as an installation guide. It would save you a
lot of work in writing your own!

mdw

Matt Welsh, mdw@cs.cornell.edu   +1 607 256 7372
-- 
"Do you want to be Finnish? Sure, we all do!"

------------------------------

From: steves@vcd.hp.com (Steve Schoeneman)
Subject: Default font for X
Date: 9 Dec 93 22:59:25 GMT

I just installed linux and am having problems getting X started.
It complains about not finding the default font and a file named
libXsa.so.3 -- I think that is right.  So I copied libX11.s0.3, 
in /lib to libXsa.so.3 and it quit complaing about not finding
the library, but still says it can't find the default font.

My display is also not right as the initial graphics screen is 
not synced properly, the 'X' appears in the upper left quadrant
of the screen, and it appears as if two separate screens are there
and need to be put on top of each other.  I ran startx and looked
at the clock settings, but wasn't sure if I needed to remark out
all entries in the Xconfig file that did not match.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve Schoeneman

------------------------------

From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 19:36:01 GMT

In article <Dec.9.10.12.15.1993.10464@pilot.njin.net> dblack@pilot.njin.net (David Alan Black) writes:
>But it's an interesting question.  Not that this is a scientifically correct
>way to conduct a survey, but....  have people had the experience of giving
>Linux to non-internet-connected friends, and having them actually install
>and use it?  Just curious.

I've given away five copies of Linux (two SLS and three Slackware)
to people who wanted email, news, and a unix to play with.
None of the five was able to get the system working (most were stopped
by XFree86), and all five gave up.
"The Linux community" should admit to ourselves that we have a vrey nice
"hacker's system" but it is nothing like a finished software product yet.

Cameron in San Jose, once again without X Windows

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Dec 93 15:48:44 MST
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
From: robinsor@bones.et.byu.edu (Ross Edwin Robinson)

In article <1993Dec8.204315.21684@nrao.edu> rzm@oso.chalmers.se (Rafal Maszkowski) writes:
>Kai Petzke (wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
>: For commercial software, estimates go, that there are ten illegal
>: copies for each legal and paid-for copy.  Why shouldn't Linux have
>: the same, where copying is *legal*?  Very likely, there are 10000*10
>: = 100 000 LGX users around, plus the same number of SLS users, plus
>: the same number of Slackware users

!
>: But most of them do not have internet access.  Most of them are not
>: able to register to the Linux counter.
>
>Registration thru BBS-es would help.

  If the BBS is on Fido net they can send email over internet.

Ross Robinsor
robinsor@bones.et.byu.edu


>

------------------------------

From: jcomyns@panix.com (John Comyns)
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
Date: 11 Dec 1993 17:40:38 -0500

In article <1993Dec11.193601.24256@truffula.sj.ca.us>,
Cameron L. Spitzer <cls@truffula.sj.ca.us> wrote:
>In article <Dec.9.10.12.15.1993.10464@pilot.njin.net> dblack@pilot.njin.net (David Alan Black) writes:
>>But it's an interesting question.  Not that this is a scientifically correct
>>way to conduct a survey, but....  have people had the experience of giving
>>Linux to non-internet-connected friends, and having them actually install
>>and use it?  Just curious.
>
>I've given away five copies of Linux (two SLS and three Slackware)
>to people who wanted email, news, and a unix to play with.
>None of the five was able to get the system working (most were stopped
>by XFree86), and all five gave up.
>"The Linux community" should admit to ourselves that we have a vrey nice
>"hacker's system" but it is nothing like a finished software product yet.
>
>Cameron in San Jose, once again without X Windows

        I think you're exaggerating the difficulty in setting up X.
Did you try asking if someone else with the same video board as you
has Xconfig? I think you gave up too easily.

        John


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.binaries.ibm.pc.wanted
From: person@plains.NoDak.edu (Brett Person)
Subject: Re: Shareware Linux For PC
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 22:57:01 GMT

In article <CHMMCK.1u3@spudge.lonestar.org> johnm@spudge.lonestar.org (John Munsch) writes:
>In article <CH69sB.CGM@Colorado.EDU> drew@kinglear.cs.colorado.edu (Drew Eckhardt) writes:
>
>Before anyone takes this advice let me point out that there are such things
>as compilation copyrights (which I can get for taking your Linux and adding
>a whole bunch of things to it), copyrights for printed materials that may 
>come with the disc, etc.

I don't think this is right.  I think this is a Peterism.  None of Linux
would be pssible without RMS. Period.  



If you are going to re-do a distribution. Re-do it from the ground up.  Grab
a source tree and do a top-level make. 
I'd guess that a lot of the sourced linux stuff is coverd by the GPL. Can
RMS comment on this?  
>
>Don't go giving anybody else's work unless you are sure what you can legally
>give away.

Ah, yes, but almost anything I've seen on ROM is also available via annon
ftp.  Shod I not give out copis of stuff I ftp, also? 

Whats the difference?

-- 
Brett Person
North Dakota State University
person@plains.nodak.edu || person@plains.bitnet

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 23:33:12 GMT

So far, the LC has been advised by some to change its name to
something without "Linux" in the name, and by others to change its
name to something without "Consortium" in its name. Lars even favored
using no name at all.

Using no name at all is completely counterproductive, I think. With
respect to the other suggestions, I'm sure you see the predicament
that Magnus has been forced into. He'll be offending the one group or
the other unless he chooses a name like "Distribution Review Team for
Distributions Based On A Kernel Not Nameable In This Title Which Team
Has No Official Sanction Or Mandate". Hardly practical.

I understand your concerns and I'm glatt Matt was cool-headed in his
latest response. We could argue nomenclature till the cows come home,
though. I therefore suggest that Magnus call for a vote on the name,
using a write-in ballot, as it were. Let anybody who would be offended
by the originally proposed name "Linux Consortium" mail Magnus with an
alternative name which would not offend them (or null-string if they
would prefer that the group have no name at all). Magnus could then
publicize the results and act accordingly, if he agrees to my suggestion.

There is no need for a majority of people to take offense at the name
finally chosen -- that can be avoided by this means. I'm glad that
Matt finally stated what the problem really was, instead of going on
with corny attempts at hermeneutics trying to explain why the original
name was ostensibly inappropriate on semantic grounds. A lot of
bandwidth could have been saved if the offended parties would have
come out and said they were offended immediately and straightforwardly
instead of trying to couch their attacks in terms of bogus semantic
analysis.

-- Mark

====================================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: jgifford@thor.fcs.uga.edu (Jim Gifford)
Subject: The Great Linux Debate(s)
Date: 11 Dec 1993 23:55:28 GMT

Due to the number of large flame wars that crop up on the c.o.l.*
groups every month or two, I propose the following:

Create a channel on the niksula mailing list called DEBATES.  Then
when a small or large flame war erupts, people can kindly take it
there, and anyone interested in the results could subscribe to it.
That would keep the debate 'public' so that interested parties can
keep track of it, (as opposed to private via e-mail which suggestion
is ALWAYS ignored), but still not subject thousands of people not
interested in the flame war to so much mindless
drivell^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H err... net.wisdom.  :)

I am surprised recently by the number of big-time linuxers makeing
such a big scene (between less than a dozen persons) rather than
takeing it to e-mail.  Perhaps this suggestion has some merit?

Well, I am going back to the hole I've been hiding in since sparking
the e2fs flame war (which was really a dying hard drive).

ObThanks:

Thanks Linus and Developers for such an amazing product in so short a
time frame!  

        PS, I have convinced several people to use Linux, and
they like it.  We have started a Linux Users Group at UGA which has
approx. 16 members now.  The group is: Classic Hackers UGA Linux Users
Group, or CHUGALUG for short.  For those that don't know, UGA is
the University of Georgia.



------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux
From: corywest@owlnet.rice.edu (Cory West)
Subject: Re: How to nuke C.O.L without killing C.O.L.*
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 05:32:42 GMT

In article <CHs4pH.FyE@icarus.ci.net> 
mirons@icarus.ci.net (Michael A. Irons) writes:

[ Explanation of the C News active file ommitted. ]

> comp.os.linux 0003702 00930 y
> comp.os.linux.admin 0000001955 00265 y
> comp.os.linux.announce 000000459 00051 m

        Instead of changing the entry to disallow posting, I would
simply make comp.os.linux an alias for comp.os.linux.misc.

comp.os.linux 0003702 00930 =comp.os.linux.misc
comp.os.linux.admin 0000001955 00265 y
comp.os.linux.announce 000000459 00051 m


------------------------------


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