Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #414
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sun, 12 Dec 93 00:17:57 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #414, Volume #1                Sun, 12 Dec 93 00:17:57 EST

Contents:
  Linux T shirts (Doug Hosking)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Damien Neil)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Matt Welsh)
  Re: The Great Linux Debate(s) (Mark Line)
  Re: The Great Linux Debate(s) (Jim Gifford)
  not a Linux Consortium (Magnus Y Alvestad)
  sxpc 1.2 (Robert Andrew Ryan)
  Looking for a gl-like lib: any clue? (Martin-D. Lacasse)
  Re: JANA CD Problems. (Ernest Leuenberger)
  0.99.14 + SB sound cards (Brett Bourbin)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hosking@netcom.com (Doug Hosking)
Subject: Linux T shirts
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 01:03:57 GMT


A few months ago, an offer to sell Linux T-shirts was posted by
cfs@next.neuro.emory.edu.  I would be interested to hear about
the experiences of those that responded to this offer.  Did you
get what you paid for ?  Please respond via email.



------------------------------

From: damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu (Damien Neil)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 12 Dec 1993 02:26:09 GMT

In article <1993Dec12.002051.17065@henson.cc.wwu.edu>,
Mark Line <markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu (Damien Neil) writes:
>
>>This is not necessarily bad, but some of these people have come to
>>view Linux as belonging to them in some way. They want to do
>>something to help, but are inable of helping with development,
>>through lack of technical knowledge.
>
>To whom are you referring here exactly, Magnus, myself, others that
>support the LC? I don't know Magnus' background so he'll have to
>respond for himself if he chooses. I hope you're not referring to me.

I was not referring to you, Magnus, or anyone else in particular.
My post was more a response to the vast number of users out there
who seem to feel that the Linux development community owes them
something. I don't know anything about either of you.

>Just as a guess, since you've apparently posted
>from a student account, I'd say there's a good possibility that I was
>developing software before you were born, that I was permanently
>employed as a software developer around the time you entered grade
>school, and that I was a Unix developer and consultant by the time you
>were in high school.

My own account on my own machine, but yes, I am a student. I have no
doubt that you have far more development experience than I do. If you
want to play superiority games, I have no doubt that you can beat me
any day. I hope that this will not prevent you from listening to what
I am saying, however.

>So I hope you didn't mean me.

Not necessarily. I described a group of people, which does exist so
far as I can tell. I had no way of knowing whether you belonged to
this group from the posts you had made.

>I had every hope of being able to contribute to Linux -- especially to
>Matt Welsh's documentation project, since I currently do most of my
>coding in languages other than C and can write well (or so I am told).

Good for you! Nobody will stop you. If you decide to work in the
documentation project, I think they have some style guidelines that
they would want you to follow, but that is all.

>If I'm not welcome because I choose to base my views on my own
>experience rather than the politically correct view among Linux
>developers, then I won't force myself upon you, of course.

Not welcome? What makes you feel that way? Every objection I have
heard directed at you so far had concerned the proposed Linux
Consortium -- not any development work you may choose to do.

>>So, they decide to go into
>>management, instead. 
>
>What does consumer protection have to to with management, other than
>the fact that it has to be organized like everything else?

Nobody has anything against consumer protection. Many people,
especially developers, do have something against an organization
with an official-sounding name making broad pronouncements about
Linux. Some developers seem worried that such an organization
might decide to extend its reach beyond distributions and attempt
to make decisions that infringe upon the areas that individual
developers have worked on themselves.

For an example of how to set up such a project, look at the FSSTND
project. It has no official membership; anyone can join the mailing
list and contribute to the discussion. The document being prepared
is careful to state that it is a recommendation, nothing more.

The FSSTND team slipped up once, however. They made a recommendation
to the XFree86 development team -- and were promptly flamed by the
XFree86 developers for infringing on their territory.

Developers respect other developers. I have yet to see a developer
who did not get upset when people who have made no contribution to
their project start making unwanted suggestions.

I realize that the proposed Linux Consortium is not indended to
make suggestions to developers. But the problem is that the very
name makes it sound like it will. The word `consortium' has a
feel of officialdom behind it. It brings to mind other consortiums,
like the X Consortium. Many people, myself included, don't want to
see an organization appear out of the blue and assume the mantle
of officialdom without having earned it. All the current Linux
developers have earned the respect of the community through
action, not words. The Linux Consortium's supporters have offered
nothing but words to this point.

>>If people change this system, many developers may decide that
>>Linux just isn't fun any more.
>
>I assume you mean "if somebody injects *management* into this system".
>That is not the intent (see above). The intent is to inject
>*information* into the system. You are opposed?

The problem, again, is the source of the information. A consortium is
just too pompous. An official logo is also pompous. I can think of
only one person who might have a chance of getting away with approving
an official logo to describe Linux, and that is Linus himself.

>>(I am reminded of the post from
>>a few days back where someone said users would ``take things into
>>their own hands'' if developers did not do what he wanted them
>>to. What an ominous statement!)
>
>Yes, that was me alright. Why is that a problem?

I do not know exactly what it is that users might take into their
own hands, so I cannot comment specifically. The phrasing used,
however, seemed to imply that if developers did not do what users
wanted, then users would act against the developers in some way.

[Much deleted to save bandwitdh]

>If I have an investment and goodwill to
>protect, then my priorities might be different from those of the Linux
>developers. That's fine (though it costs me, of course), but that also
>means that we'll have to do some things ourselves.

I am not certain what your point is here. Why should Linux developers
care if you decide to work on Linux? They will almost certainly be
happy. You are free to do anything you want to, within the terms of
the GPL.

>If we find that the
>available documentation is not appropriate to our needs, we'll make
>our own -- that's part of what we do for a living, after all -- and
>publish it as a copyrighted work. Is that a problem for you?

I very much doubt that this would be a problem for anyone. 

You seem to be saying something like (correct me if I am wrong):
``Linux developers, watch out! If you don't do what I want, then I'll
do it myself!'' This attitude seems bizzarre to me -- why should Linux
developers care if you do things the way you want to? They only object
when a person tries to make them do things the way he wants them to.

>If I'm the only person worldwide who needs this kind of information,
>then Magnus should just drop it, of course. I don't really think I am,
>though, so he probably shouldn't.

The problem is not the information -- it is the proposed source.

>>Remember what happened to Ross
>>Biro. He became tired of the flames and the complaints...and he
>>left. He stopped working on Linux. He didn't quit a job -- he
>>stopped volunteering. There was nothing anyone could do about
>>it, and all the flamers were left with *nothing*.

>He was before my time with Linux, no doubt. But I don't understand why
>you think anybody was left with *nothing*. What is this system I'm
>using right now? Toaster firmware? I think you might be guilty here of
>a quiet burst of ominosity ...

Ross was flamed by people who wanted things done their way. He wanted
things done his way, and he was the one doing the work. Eventually, he
got sick of the flames and left. Things were not done the flamers' way,
nor were they done Ross's way. Nobody got anything from Ross -- not
even an imperfect system that did not do everything exactly the way
they wanted.

>I don't think anybody said they weren't grateful to the Linux
>developers -- I *am* grateful, and to the the developers of XFree,
>GhostScript, Emacs and many other GPL etc. products I use every day.
>This was never the point. Just because there's disagreement doesn't
>mean those that disagree with the developers are not grateful. If it
>did, that would have to be called blackmail -- and I'm sure that's not
>what you're trying to imply here.

If my mother gives me a blue Ford for Christmas, and I pester her
afterwards that I had really wanted a green Honda, I am being childish
and ungrateful. I am not saying that you are acting in this fashion,
but many people are, and you seem to be coming close. You seem to have
said (again, correct me if I am wrong), ``Mom, if you don't give me a
green Honda, I'm just going to have to go out and buy one!''

Feel free to disagree with developers. However, please respect their
right to have the final say in what they have created. Because of their
generosity, you can change anything you want to, so long as you make
the changes public. But don't think you can dictate terms to them. They
can always leave, and we will all be the poorer for it.
-- 
Damien Neil  [MIME OK]   CMPS/EEAP  "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu       I can do is a quick patch here and there."
  dpn2@po.cwru.edu  Case Western Reserve University         - Erik Green

------------------------------

From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 12 Dec 93 02:16:25 GMT

In article <1993Dec11.233312.14740@henson.cc.wwu.edu> markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line) writes:
>I understand your concerns and I'm glatt Matt was cool-headed in his
>latest response.

It's always handy to have a bucket of ice water around for these
occasions.

>I therefore suggest that Magnus call for a vote on the name,

In recent mailings it seems that the name "Linux Review Group" may be
used. I personally like this name, it is unambiguous and unoffensive.
The LRG would more than likely become another household term like
"LDP" or "LSM" if used in that sense. 

It's my inderstanding that the LRG is just another project supporting
Linux, much like the LDP. Lars doesn't object to the name "Linux" in
"Linux Documentation Project", so I don't see how LRG would be a
problem. It should be made clear that the LRG would be another
cooperative effort to aid the Linux community in some way, but there's
no reason to puff it up with a big image. In fact, I'm willing to
support the LRG and include "LRG ratings" in the Distribution-HOWTO,
understanding that it is an informal rating system and that anyone can
take the ratings with a large bag of salt. 

Another idea is to have a democratic voting system for rating Linux
distributions; readers could e-mail ratings on a scale from 1 to 10
for certain features of a distribution such as ease of installation,
ease of use, quality of documentation, completeness, and so on. In
this way the LRG ratings would actually come from the Linux community
itself, and not from an arbitrary group of people whom everyone might
not trust.

mdw
-- 
"Do you want to be Finnish? Sure, we all do!"

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: The Great Linux Debate(s)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 02:35:14 GMT

jgifford@thor.fcs.uga.edu (Jim Gifford) writes:

>       PS, I have convinced several people to use Linux, and
>they like it.  We have started a Linux Users Group at UGA which has
>approx. 16 members now.  The group is: Classic Hackers UGA Linux Users
>Group, or CHUGALUG for short.  For those that don't know, UGA is
>the University of Georgia.

I hope you realize that you've ostracized yourself from the Real Linux
Community forever by using "Linux" in the name of your group without
their blessing. Or were you able to get their blessing? How? Tell me,
tell me!!!

-- Mark

====================================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: jgifford@thor.fcs.uga.edu (Jim Gifford)
Subject: Re: The Great Linux Debate(s)
Date: 12 Dec 1993 02:50:43 GMT

In article <1993Dec12.023514.25870@henson.cc.wwu.edu> markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line) writes:
   jgifford@thor.fcs.uga.edu (Jim Gifford) writes:

   >    PS, I have convinced several people to use Linux, and
   >they like it.  We have started a Linux Users Group at UGA which has
   >approx. 16 members now.  The group is: Classic Hackers UGA Linux Users
   >Group, or CHUGALUG for short.  For those that don't know, UGA is
   >the University of Georgia.

   I hope you realize that you've ostracized yourself from the Real Linux
   Community forever by using "Linux" in the name of your group without
   their blessing. Or were you able to get their blessing? How? Tell me,
   tell me!!!

   -- Mark

I have been useing Linux since 0.95 (which was almost 0.13 ;), and I
have been trying to contribute since.   However, being a decent
programmer in pascal, and lousy in C, there wasn't all that much I
could do.  I started to help the LDP at the beginning, and I started
the serial discussion list.  I even patched my first kernel to allow 4
serial ports on 4 IRQ's before 0.95a.  That was when most of the
serial stuff was just starting to be switched to C, and I had to teach
myself GNU Assembler, and figure out from the source how to program
the interrupt controllers.  I am just surprised it worked!  :)
However, I was not really capable of contributing, so I dropped out
for a while.  Note that I haven't yet gone back to DOS/windoze on this
box since 0.95, but it has been re-installed from scratch a few dozen
times.  (one of my first programming mistakes was to accidentally
point a serial port at my hda the bios doesn't think that atz^Matdt
xxxx is bootable!  ;)  So anyway, on to the point...  I finally
figured how to contribute to linux:  start a local users group and
work with the local users to assist each other, rather than flood the
news with faq's.   A friend of mine actually came up with the name,
snd it stuck.  :)

Well, 'nuff ramblin'.

Later,
Jim Gifford


------------------------------

From: magnus@vipe.ii.uib.no (Magnus Y Alvestad)
Subject: not a Linux Consortium
Date: 12 Dec 1993 03:06:16 GMT
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no

Attention!

I'm not driving for a Linux Consortium any more. I've found other ways
of getting the word to the people that I think the community will find
it easier to accept. It will probably involve:

- A revised version of the Distribution HOWTO, a Linux Buyer's Guide.
- A group of people testing distributions, rating them.
- Feedback from people on the net - their ratings of distributions.
- Making all this information available on and off the net.

Hope this stops the flame war. I'm sorry I started it. If I had been
more patient, it might have been avoided. *bonk*

-Magnus

------------------------------

From: Robert Andrew Ryan <rr2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x
Subject: sxpc 1.2
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 22:21:00 -0500

sxpc 1.2 has been released to ftp.x.org (contrib/sxpc-1.2.shar.Z) and
atk.itc.cmu.edu (sxpc-1.2.shar.Z)

The only new feature is support for avoiding multiple startups of sxpc,
and for killing it easily.

See comp.windows.x.announce or comp.os.linux.announce for more information.

-Rob Ryan

------------------------------

From: isaac@elrond.physics.mcgill.ca (Martin-D. Lacasse)
Subject: Looking for a gl-like lib: any clue?
Reply-To: isaac@physics.mcgill.ca
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 03:39:17 GMT

        Hi there,

        I am developping Ising-like toy models and would like to start
        using my linux box in my project. I am used to SGI gl library.
        Is there anything similar (public domain) that has been ported
        to linux? If not, what is the easiest way to display discrete
        or continous models in X-windows. Systems are most likely 
        2-dimensional fields to be color mapped.

        Any suggestion, piece of code, pointer to libraries welcome.

        Thanks for your time,

Martin
----

 """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
 Martin-D. Lacasse                   internet: isaac@physics.mcgill.ca
 Physics Department                     voice: (514) 398-7027
 McGill University                        fax: (514) 398-8434
 Montreal, Quebec, Canada
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: ernestl@bnr.ca (Ernest Leuenberger)
Subject: Re: JANA CD Problems.
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 03:09:56 GMT
Reply-To: ernestl@bnr.ca

|> In article <60.3733.5780.0N18DC0C@canrem.com> jana@canrem.com (Jana) writes:
|> >Hello All,
Hello Jay:


Wow this is a first: two flames from the same person within an hour! (in
addition to an extremely friendly message full of curteous language as would
be fitting for any business transaction; NOT! :-) )

Jay, I must have realy gotten your attention.
Of course, I hope you realize that I'm too cold for flames to have any effect.

Nevertheless I would like to end this thread. At the moment I'm now satisfied 
that I will get my CDs (it's amazing what an email can accomplish. If only 
Jay had realized that I did not send the posts and email in the order that
he read them. i.e. he's flaming about something that was already resolved).

Here's the sequence of events that prompted me to post my 'flaime' (I don't 
think that this was a unique case):
(this message got a bit long so you may not want to read it all)

- I saw the announcement from JANA offering Linux on CDs. Looked like a great
  deal and I didn't need to pay any money up front; you get to check out the
  first CD risk free. Nice marketing strategy I thought this company may go 
  far.

- I ordered the first CD. 
- I got the CD in the mail, checked it out, thought it was of reasonable 
  quality for a first edition.
- I sent JANA a cheque for a one year subscription.
- After some time I got a letter basically calling me a thief for keeping 
  the CD and not paying for it.
- OK, I thought. JANA is just getting started and may have lost my cheque or
  maybe it got lost in the mail. So I send them an email asserting that I
  had indeed sent a cheque and if they could not find it I would send
  them another one after cancelling the first one.
- The day after, I got the statement from my bank showing that the cheque had 
  been cashed weeks before JANA mailed me the letter.
- I also saw messages on the net showing that I was not an isolated case, other
  people had gotten the same letter after paying.
- A while later (I can't remember exactly how long) I got my second disk.
  Great, I thought, JANA is getting it together.
- Nothing for a long time.
- Still nothing for a long time.
- I sent email asking "what's up?" No response...
- I saw messages on the net asking what was going on, people were looking
  for their next CD.
- I saw a message from Mr. anonymous stating that JANA was reorginizing due
  to greater than expected response.
- Nothing for a long time again. No one answers the phone or email.
- There is an announcement that the July/August CD was cancelled due to 
  lack of new material. The message also states that there are now extra 
  people working for JANA and that current subscribers would get an extra 
  CD for their patience. This was early September. It also promises that the
  Sept./Oct CD would have uncompressed software on it that could be used
  directly from the CD. As well the Nov/Dec CD would enable users to run
  Linux directly off the CD. 
- Nothing for a long time.
- I saw messages on the net from people looking for their CD. I even follow
  up on one with a small flicker of a flame hoping to get JANA's attention.
- Mr. anonymous posts a message saying that everything was great and that
  JANA realy has it's act together now.
- Nothing for a long time.
- I sent an email to JANA asking about the status of the next CD and got
  a response saying that the CDs to the US had been mailed a week prior and
  that the CDs for Canada would be mailed the following Monday.
- I saw messages from people saying that they had gotten the next disk. (Some
  were complaining about broken cases or lack of labeling on the CD.
- I allowed two weeks after the date that the CDs to Canada were supposed to 
  have been mailed and then sent another message with my mailing address in
  case JANA had lost it during the summer.
- I followed up to a query on the net stating that I too had not received my
  CD.
- I received a response to this post from Jay asking for my mailing address.
  This was two days after I had sent my address to linux@jana.com. Jay's
  message said nothing about the jana.com addresses not working. Therefore 
  I assume that someone at Jana has my address and do not send another
  message.
- Nothing for two weeks.
- I followed up to a message on the net stating that I still had not received
  my CD. Included in this message were some comments intended to get Jana's
  attention. 
- I got a message from Jay complaining that I had never sent him my address
  when he asked for it. Included is for the first time that the jana.com 
  addresses were not working anymore.
- I sent Jay my mailing address to his other email address.
- I got another message from Jay aparently news takes a day to get to Jay
  whereas email does not. Therefore Jay is complaining about a post I had
  sent before I got his earlier email. In it he writes:
...
What is this ?
Do you enjoy damaging people and hurting them.
(in response I would say Jay is hurting himself and I don't think Jana needs 
any outside help in terms of causing damage to themselves)
...
I have a f______ (Jay uses the actual f work here, very business like) 800
number and I do not understand why you cant call me on that and talked to me.
My @jana.com address is not working for the past 10 days, so if you dont
get a reply call us. Did you know that you dont have to pay for 800 call.
...


In the flame he claims:
...
I have told 1000 times on the net that my @jana.com address is having 
some problems
...
I do remember one (or maybe more than one) message early in June or there
abouts about his uucp address not working. I do not remember seeing any
messages lately about email problems (but I don't read every single message
in c.o.l.m).

In conclusion I would like to state that if there had been regular updates
on the net with some reasonable explanations as to what was going on then 
I probably would never have posted a single derogatory comment.
I don't like to find out that an edition has been cancelled long after
it was due. It would have been nice to know about this earlier. Another 
example is the letter about not getting my money even after Jana had cashed 
my cheque.
I like to support small businesses but they must behave like businesses.
Also the price was certainly right and if I go to a discount store to get
something then I realize that the service I get may not be quite as good as
that from a more expensive store.


Ernest. (ernestl@bnr.ca)



------------------------------

From: brett@visix.com (Brett Bourbin)
Subject: 0.99.14 + SB sound cards
Date: 9 Dec 93 14:17:08 GMT
Reply-To: brett@visix.com

Are there any patches to the 0.99.14 sound release to work with the SB  
card?  The version what ships with the pl14 release incorrectly thinks  
that the IRQs can only be at 7, 10 and 11, when the jumper on the card has  
much different settings (mine is at IRQ 2).

I tried just hacking the local.h file that it creates for the IRQ equates,  
but if I try to use it, it tells me the IRQ is in use by someone else  
(works just fine under Windows and Windows NT).

Any info would be helpful.
Thanks.

--
--                             __
Brett Bourbin           \  / /(_  /\/  11440 Commerce Park Drive
  brett@visix.com        \/ / __)/ /\  Reston, Virginia 22091
  ..uupsi!visix!brett    Software Inc  703.758.8230

------------------------------


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