Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #415
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sun, 12 Dec 93 04:13:15 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #415, Volume #1                Sun, 12 Dec 93 04:13:15 EST

Contents:
  Re: Help me, three button mouse (Ming Qiang Xu)
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (Carl Boernecke)
  Re: Let's vote (Carl Boernecke)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Mark Line)
  Re: Let's vote (Matthew William Boyd)
  Re: Linux Consortium (Matt Welsh)
  Does LINUX support Magneto-Optical (MO) drives ? (Enrico Scotoni)
  Re: Linux Consortium .. NOT! (Magnus Y Alvestad)
  Re: Any visual debuggers ? (Alan Evans)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: mqxu@mcs.anl.gov (Ming Qiang Xu)
Subject: Re: Help me, three button mouse
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 05:16:03 GMT

>>>>> On Sat, 4 Dec 1993 11:45:36 GMT, johnm@stud.cs.uit.no (John Markus Bjoerndalen) said:
John> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]


John> The "100% microsoft compatible" 3 button mice seems to use a 
John> "cheating" protocol in the way that whenever you press 
John> the middle button, it looks to the application reading
John> the mouse that you pressed the left and right button at 
John> the same time. Just use the "Microsoft" keyword and
John> "Emulate3Button". 

John> It works, but I would prefer finding out what kind of 
John> "garbage" I have to send to the mouse
John> to put it in its native mode. (It's a mouseman). 

John> Maybe this should be a faq ? 

Check your Microsoft mouse whether it has a switch inside your mouse to
make it a MouseSystems Mouse.  Then put the following line in Xconfig:

MouseSystems  "/dev/mouse"

then it should work.

-ming




------------------------------

From: carlb@inex.com (Carl Boernecke)
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 05:25:04 GMT

jcomyns@panix.com (John Comyns) writes:
>In article <1993Dec11.193601.24256@truffula.sj.ca.us>,
>Cameron L. Spitzer <cls@truffula.sj.ca.us> wrote:
>>In article <Dec.9.10.12.15.1993.10464@pilot.njin.net> dblack@pilot.njin.net (David Alan Black) writes:
>>>But it's an interesting question.  Not that this is a scientifically correct
>>>way to conduct a survey, but....  have people had the experience of giving
>>>Linux to non-internet-connected friends, and having them actually install
>>>and use it?  Just curious.
>>
>>I've given away five copies of Linux (two SLS and three Slackware)
>>to people who wanted email, news, and a unix to play with.
>>None of the five was able to get the system working (most were stopped
>>by XFree86), and all five gave up.
>>"The Linux community" should admit to ourselves that we have a vrey nice
>>"hacker's system" but it is nothing like a finished software product yet.
>>
>>Cameron in San Jose, once again without X Windows

>       I think you're exaggerating the difficulty in setting up X.
>Did you try asking if someone else with the same video board as you
>has Xconfig? I think you gave up too easily.

I'd have to agree with that statement about X.  I've talked
many people through the setup process until they got to
anything dealing with X (er, actually getting it to work...
installing it is easy).

What I think we need to do (Patrick, listening?) is just copy
the setup from Messy-DOS and have something similar for Linux.
(Definately a place for ncurses... gotta' have that color. 
*grin*)

When I first tried my evaluation copy of Windows-NT, I figured
it would be a pain-in-the-ass to setup... just like the UNIX
setups that I had grown to love so much.  However, it nearly
auto-configurs itself for your system.  Just like Windows.

Don't get my wrong, I don't like anything that has left that
big company in Redmond, Washington, but they know how to make
it easier for the 'common person.'  This is what Linux should
strive to achieve if it ever wants to 'saturate' the market.

(BTW, the Slackware reference is strictly the local preference,
or so it would seem.  Mention anything other than Slackware
or MCS and some of the locals will cut your head off and call
you bad names.  *smirk*)
-- 
-- Carl Boernecke (carlb@inex.com)
   "Time flies like an arrow... fruit flies like a banana."

------------------------------

From: carlb@inex.com (Carl Boernecke)
Subject: Re: Let's vote
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 05:26:39 GMT

mattwb@cs.utexas.edu (Matthew William Boyd) writes:
>I don't like like it.  Anyone else?

I don't like short messages that encourage others to vote
without defining the topic first.  Are you referring to
Linux as a whole, or the genetic breeding that has been
done on Christmas trees to make them resemble ducks?
-- 
-- Carl Boernecke (carlb@inex.com)
   "Time flies like an arrow... fruit flies like a banana."

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: 12 Dec 93 07:11:48 GMT

damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu (Damien Neil) writes:

>In article <1993Dec12.002051.17065@henson.cc.wwu.edu>,
>Mark Line <markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>>damien@b63519.student.cwru.edu (Damien Neil) writes:
>>
>>>This is not necessarily bad, but some of these people have come to
>>>view Linux as belonging to them in some way. They want to do
>>>something to help, but are inable of helping with development,
>>>through lack of technical knowledge.
>>
>>To whom are you referring here exactly, Magnus, myself, others that
>>support the LC? I don't know Magnus' background so he'll have to
>>respond for himself if he chooses. I hope you're not referring to me.

>I was not referring to you, Magnus, or anyone else in particular.
>My post was more a response to the vast number of users out there
>who seem to feel that the Linux development community owes them
>something. I don't know anything about either of you.

I've seen no evidence of this here. The LC thought the *distributors*
owed them something, not the *developers*. I've said that forty-eleven
times already. I took offense at your implication that those in favor
of the LC are generally technically incompetent, would like to help
(bless their little hearts), but just can't get it up. I just wanted
to give one small counterexample. As I said before, maybe I'm the only
one. The point of the LC was that even the technically unencumbered
pay real money for Linux distributions, so their opinions need to be
considered as well.

>>If I'm not welcome because I choose to base my views on my own
>>experience rather than the politically correct view among Linux
>>developers, then I won't force myself upon you, of course.

>Not welcome? What makes you feel that way? Every objection I have
>heard directed at you so far had concerned the proposed Linux
>Consortium -- not any development work you may choose to do.

Two statements make me feel unwelcome. Yours, that LC supporters are a
bunch of technically incapable do-gooders running around like chickens
without heads, and Matt Welsh's, that only the Linux developers have a
say in what goes on in the Linux community.

>Nobody has anything against consumer protection. Many people,
>especially developers, do have something against an organization
>with an official-sounding name making broad pronouncements about
>Linux. Some developers seem worried that such an organization
>might decide to extend its reach beyond distributions and attempt
>to make decisions that infringe upon the areas that individual
>developers have worked on themselves.

How could the LC make decisions for developers? The LC could only have
formed and express opinions.

>Developers respect other developers. I have yet to see a developer
>who did not get upset when people who have made no contribution to
>their project start making unwanted suggestions.

Ta da. Permit me to introduce myself. I am a developer who welcomes
reasoned suggestions about my work, especially when it comes from my
software's users. Is this so uncommon?

>I realize that the proposed Linux Consortium is not indended to
>make suggestions to developers. But the problem is that the very
>name makes it sound like it will. The word `consortium' has a
>feel of officialdom behind it. It brings to mind other consortiums,
>like the X Consortium.

As far as I know, the X Consortium attempts to provide guidance for
those who wish to *port* and distribute X software. Is this so
different from what the LC intended?

>The Linux Consortium's supporters have offered
>nothing but words to this point.

That's because the supporters of the LC were asked to carry out
discussion of details in public -- i.e. in c.o.l.m. If Magnus had just
gotten on with it, several people would already be working on test
reports.

>>>(I am reminded of the post from
>>>a few days back where someone said users would ``take things into
>>>their own hands'' if developers did not do what he wanted them
>>>to. What an ominous statement!)
>>
>>Yes, that was me alright. Why is that a problem?

>I do not know exactly what it is that users might take into their
>own hands, so I cannot comment specifically. The phrasing used,
>however, seemed to imply that if developers did not do what users
>wanted, then users would act against the developers in some way.

No, my comment was in response to Matt Welsh's statement that
non-developers have no say in what goes on in the Linux community, to
which I took grave offense; I assume that many distributors might take
offense as well. I perceive a real need that is not being addressed by
the developers. If the developers see a way to meet that need, fine.
If not, then those who feel the need will meet it in a different way.
That's what I intended to get across with my ostensibly ominous
statement.

>>If I have an investment and goodwill to
>>protect, then my priorities might be different from those of the Linux
>>developers. That's fine (though it costs me, of course), but that also
>>means that we'll have to do some things ourselves.

>I am not certain what your point is here. Why should Linux developers
>care if you decide to work on Linux? They will almost certainly be
>happy. You are free to do anything you want to, within the terms of
>the GPL.

The things I was referring to that we'd do ourselves have to do with
the things that the LC proposed to do. And we're *obviously* not free
to do anything we want, if the developers have the final say,
regardless of the scope of the GPL.

>You seem to be saying something like (correct me if I am wrong):
>``Linux developers, watch out! If you don't do what I want, then I'll
>do it myself!'' This attitude seems bizzarre to me -- why should Linux
>developers care if you do things the way you want to? They only object
>when a person tries to make them do things the way he wants them to.

Again, the statement from mdw was that people in the Linux community
can only do what the Linux developers agree to. If you don't agree
with mdw, fine. Neither do I.

>If my mother gives me a blue Ford for Christmas, and I pester her
>afterwards that I had really wanted a green Honda, I am being childish
>and ungrateful. I am not saying that you are acting in this fashion,
>but many people are, and you seem to be coming close. You seem to have
>said (again, correct me if I am wrong), ``Mom, if you don't give me a
>green Honda, I'm just going to have to go out and buy one!''

One more time: the LC was not proposing to evaluate the activities of
developers who give away software. It was proposing to evaluate the
activities of distributors who *sell* software. Your analogy doesn't
apply; that's why I've referred to the LC as a consumer-protection
organization.

>Feel free to disagree with developers. However, please respect their
>right to have the final say in what they have created. Because of their
>generosity, you can change anything you want to, so long as you make
>the changes public. But don't think you can dictate terms to them. They
>can always leave, and we will all be the poorer for it.

Your argument is with the distributors who take free software and
package it for money, not with the LC. If that's okay with the
developers, then it's okay with me. I only disagree with developers
openly when they claim some kind of control over the Linux community.
They have no more control than Richard Stallman has over the Emacs
community or Bill Gates has over the MS-Windows community. Control
over software, yes. Control over the user community, no.

-- Mark

====================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: mattwb@cs.utexas.edu (Matthew William Boyd)
Subject: Re: Let's vote
Date: 12 Dec 1993 02:10:19 -0600

That second thing.

------------------------------

From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 08:26:08 GMT

In article <1993Dec12.071148.11487@henson.cc.wwu.edu> markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line) writes:
>Two statements make me feel unwelcome. Yours, that LC supporters are a
>bunch of technically incapable do-gooders running around like chickens
>without heads, and Matt Welsh's, that only the Linux developers have a
>say in what goes on in the Linux community.

This is incorrect. I have said that Linux is not just for the
developers. It's not just for the users, either. You have to
find a middle ground between the two to get anything done. In
particular claims of "officialdom" should come from the developers
only, because they are the ones responsible for the software.

That's my opinion. 

>No, my comment was in response to Matt Welsh's statement that
>non-developers have no say in what goes on in the Linux community, 

>Again, the statement from mdw was that people in the Linux community
>can only do what the Linux developers agree to. 

Both of the above statements are false. To save you the trouble, I'll
quote my own text directly. I said,

>That's another problem: The developers shouldn't *have* to put up with
>anything. Linus can decide to yank the whole project if he wanted
>to. If so, I doubt you'd have an easy time finding someone to fill his
>shoes. (Anybody still remember Ross Biro? He left in part because of
>the attitude expressed above. But I won't get into that now.) 

Nowhere in here do I state or imply that the only decisions that can
be made are by the developers. In fact, I say quite the opposite below:

>Linus[sic, meaning Linux] is not just for the developers. It's not
>just for the users,
>either. What some of us try to do is reach a middle ground between the
>needs of the users and the needs of the developers.

Wherein do I state that, in your words, that "only the Linux
developers have a say in what goes on in the Linux community"? 

Informally, people use the term ``Linux developers'' to mean
well-known old hats like Linus, Lars, and the rest who have shaped
Linux in some way or another. This is not a closed circle. It is more
a question of seniority and influence than anything else. (NOTE: What
follows is only a distillation of my own observations of how the Linux
community appears to work. It's not a judgement or a rule. I'm not
saying whether this is good or bad, I'm just pointing out that this is
how things seems to currently work. That's how the cookie crumbles, as
they say. :)) The point is simply that ``non-developers'' in general 
don't do things that offend the ``developers''. That only causes
problems as we've seen here. If users don't like the direction that
Linux is going in, feel free to ``work your way up the ladder'' by 
contributing, but don't shove your way ahead in line. Anyone can shape
Linux, but the most productive way to do it is by respecting those who
came before you. It may not be the best way, and not all parts of it
are perfect, but that's how it seems to work now.

I don't care to argue the point much further. Please e-mail me if you
want to chat about it---I don't bite. :)

I'm perfectly happy with the concept and name of "Linux Review Group"
and the intended purpose. I plan to aid the LRG in writing the ``Linux
Buyer's Guide'' which is primarily for folks who don't have network
access. Not only with this promote Linux distributions, but it will
include short reviews and "ratings" (taken via vote from the Linux
community at large) of each distribution. Hopefully this friendly
competition will work in Linux's favour.

Are we all happy now?

mdw
-- 
"Do you want to be Finnish? Sure, we all do!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 10:26:00 MET
From: scoti@p46.keru.chg.imp.com (Enrico Scotoni)
Subject: Does LINUX support Magneto-Optical (MO) drives ?

 > Does LINUX support Magneto-Optical (MO) drives ? I am looking at the
 > Fugitsu 3.5 inch drive that supports 128M on each drive. I have
 > read a little bit on the technology and the drive and it looks good. As
 > you all know MO optical drives are READ/WRITE drives  where the READ/WRITE
 > access is much slower then a normal magnetic drive but you can you use the
 > media like normal floppy drives. Although its expensive then DAT Tapes but
 > the media life is much longer. Any way, the drives provide a standard SCSI
 > (or SCSI-II) interface.

I am using a 1GB MaxOptix Tahiti II on my SCSI without problems.

 > I have the following questions:

 > a) Since the drives have standard SCSI interface and will be connected
 >    to my standard scsi card, do I even need any additional driver support ?

No, at least I didn't. I access it like a HD (/dev/sdb....), making partitons
with fdisk, filesystems etc.

 > b) How will the MO-floppy change detection will take place ? Is it gonna be
 >    similar to the way floppy driver detects floppy drive change ?

No it's similar to CD-ROM: If the drive is mounted you can't pull it out. If
it's umounted you can change it.

 > c) Last but not least, has anyone dared to use these drives on Linux yet ?

See above.

Regards

Enrico

---

------------------------------

From: magnus@vipe.ii.uib.no (Magnus Y Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Linux Consortium .. NOT!
Date: 12 Dec 1993 08:53:02 GMT
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no

In article <1993Dec12.071148.11487@henson.cc.wwu.edu> markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line) writes:

        [a lot]

Mr Line, I appreciate your support, but I would like to ask you to
SHUT UP! And that goes for the rest of you as well. I'm getting a
headache. There will be no Linux Consortium. Let the dog die.

-Magnus

------------------------------

From: aevans@kaiwan.com (Alan Evans)
Subject: Re: Any visual debuggers ?
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 08:33:06 GMT

In <2eaijg$k9f@news.acns.nwu.edu> dennis@cauchy.math.nwu.edu (Dennis Director) writes:

>It really hurts me to say this, but after a few
>years of being forced to live in the DOS world,
>I got spoiled by using Microsoft/Borland type
>visual symbolic debuggers for C developement.

>Now that I am back to Unix (Linux), I find gdb
>excellent as it is, slow to use compared to
>fancy debuggers available in the DOS world.

>Is there anything like this for X, even already
>working on Linux?  How about a Tk something?
>Thanks for any assitance,  dennis@math.nwu.edu

You might try mxgdb or xxgdb. I use mxgdb everyday and find it
quite pleasing. We couldn't get xxgdb to work at my site (SYS5 on NCR)
so I can't say to much about it, but it did look pretty cool under
linux. Consult archie as to where to find these.

Happy debugging !!!
Alan Evans
-- 
=============================+========================================
Alan B. Evans                |  This space available
Huntington Beach, CA         |  This space available
=============================+========================================

------------------------------


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