Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #422
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Mon, 13 Dec 93 12:13:51 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #422, Volume #1                Mon, 13 Dec 93 12:13:51 EST

Contents:
  BOOTDISK needed for slackware!! (Justin Lister)
  Re: Debate: Time to Remove SLS From archive sites? (John Waterson)
  Re: Let's vote (Phillip Hardy)
  Re: Hierarchies (was: Re: Linux Consortium) (Philip Balister)
  Re: PAS 16 with AHA 1542 (Rob Janssen)
  Re: School Science Club may distribute Linux...interested? (Scott Beckstead)
  Re: School Science Club may distribute Linux...interested? (Kevin Fluet)
  Re: Hierarchies (was: Re: Linux Consortium) (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: Debate: Time to Remove SLS From archive sites? (David Alan Black)
  Re: _Real_ hackers ... (Ian Soboroff)
  Re: _Real_ hackers ... (Paul Tomblin)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ruf@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (Justin Lister)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: BOOTDISK needed for slackware!!
Date: 13 Dec 1993 22:59:17 +1100

I have been trying fruitlessly to get a bootdisk for slackware that would
recognize my Ultrastor 34f. The scsi-howto said that the bootdisk would 
recognize the Ultrastor but apparently it doesn't. 8(

I found a boot disk (apparently is for a commercial linux package -
thought that linux was supposed to be pd/freeware etc).

Anyway this lgx bootdisk from yggdrasil seems to be the best I have found so
far the only problem is that it wants to mount root from cdrom (obviously this
boot disk was made specific for there commerical package). I attempted to get
help but it seems that they dont appreciate 'me' trying to get "FREE" support
when I didn't pay for there product. ohh well never mind.

Anyway I hoping that someone might be able to create a boot disk for me
that is similar the the lgx boot disk rev A (supposedly it has fix for Ultrastor
34F).

My specs are:

        MG486/66 vesa   + 16Meg (70ns)
                        + Cirrus 5426 2M (vesa) gfx controller
                        + Ultrastor 34F fast scsi 2 bus master (vesa)
                                Conner 31370 fast scsi 2 3.5 1.37GIG HD
                        + Sound Galaxy NXPro 16 sound card
                                Panasonic CR562B CDRom (non scsi)
                        + amd2100 ethernet card
                        + active 14.4k fax modem (internal - 16550A on COM4)

I would appreciate if the boot disk could configure all the devices but
at this point would appreciate anything that would just detect the SCSI
controller.

I have the slackware 0.99pl14 distribution disks, but would be willing to use
any version (I just want a linux version I can install) 8(


------------------------------

From: watersoj@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (John Waterson)
Subject: Re: Debate: Time to Remove SLS From archive sites?
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 13:34:20 GMT

dlakelan@iastate.edu (Daniel L Lakeland) writes:
> >jeske@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (David Jeske) writes:

> >As sad as it is, and as much as I owe alot to SLS for being there
> >and getting me started in the beginning, all the points made seem
> >to be on the mark.  I have had no problems WORSE then 0.99pl12
> >(which I ended up never running because of the problems) and Xfree
> >2.0 is light years ahead of 1.2.

And I'm afraid I have to agree as well. I'm stuck with SLS 1.03 until
I have time to reinstall (soon, soon...), and it does nothing but
annoy me. It seems like every time I boot the thing I find some new
niggle, some stale symlink, some ballsed-up permissions. And yet, I
keep thinking, it got me up and running. It's a curious situation, but
I fall unreservedly on the side of those wanting to remove SLS from
the public eye nonetheless. The sooner Matt rewrites his "Getting
Started" guide (which is excellent, BTW) for another distributionn,
the better.

However, I feel that what we should really be shouting for just now is
someone to defend SLS, not to bury it. If we can put a call out for
people willing to stand up and defend SLS as a valid, worthwhile
distribution, and *still* draw blanks (which I suspect we might), then
we have a much more conclusive case for junking it. The original call
for "debate" seems to have gotten a pretty one sided response. If that
continues, I see no reason not to proceed.

> WHAT IS THE MOST UP-TO-DATE DISTRIBUTION???

> I want to get ahold of linux, and install it, what should I get? GNU?
> slackware? what's the best?

I suggest you try the FAQ distribution first. It's quicker to download
and easier to install than all the rest, no question. I think it's
particularly strong on support for newcomers. You should be able to
find it on any of the main archives, or rtfm.mit.edu, which is a very
handy ftp address to remember throughout your spells in the Internet.

John Waterson
watersoj@dcs.gla.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: phillip@mserve.kiwi.gen.nz (Phillip Hardy)
Subject: Re: Let's vote
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:28:46 GMT

Matthew William Boyd (mattwb@cs.utexas.edu) wrote:
: I don't like like it.  Anyone else?

don't like what?

personly i hate all the crossposting :) i read one group and then 
i get the message in the next ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

mmmm maby something like
alt.linux.help.kernel
alt.linux.help.Xwindows
alt.linux.help.modems
and the read (misc) can go in help 
       hay just something to think about.


--
PGP 2.3A Key id: Phillip W. Hardy <phillip@mserve.kiwi.gen.nz) 
What do you mean you don't use linux :-() Get it while its HOT
PPG Digital fingerprint {A4 A9 DE 59 B8 FB 62 1B | E7 54 57 D7 27 06 0F 8E} 
for Public key Email me / finger phillip@status.gen.nz / visit keyserver
(echo Disclamer ; yes "I will not leave my terminal loged in"

------------------------------

From: balister@maddog.async.vt.edu (Philip Balister)
Subject: Re: Hierarchies (was: Re: Linux Consortium)
Date: 13 Dec 1993 13:11:43 GMT
Reply-To: pbaliste@vt.edu

Lars Wirzenius (wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI) wrote:
[Excellent description deleted]

: Exactly who belongs to which class, depends on who you ask.  Some people
: are clear cases: Linus is the creme de la creme (or whatever it is the
: French say).  Personally, I would put the distribution creators in the top
: class (even Peter, for his merits are great).

People who flame SLS should probably grep the kernel sources for Peter's
name. For his work there alone he ranks high. Possibly kernel hackers
don't make the best distribution organizers, but Peter did great things
for Linux with the original SLS.

If Linux hackers where as good at customer support and diplomacy as they
are kernel hacking they'd be rich lawyers instead ;-)

Philip
--
Linux: The choice of a GNU generation!

------------------------------

From: rob@pe1chl.ampr.org (Rob Janssen)
Subject: Re: PAS 16 with AHA 1542
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 13:46:57 GMT

In <1993Dec13.035109.10564@news.uit.no> johnm@stud.cs.uit.no (John Markus Bjoerndalen) writes:

>In article <1993Dec12.175719.25653@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de> Gregor Hoffleit (flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de) wrote:
> ] Hi,

> ] if you have a look into the NeXT newsgroup you could get the idea that it
> ] is impossible to get an PAS16 sound card work in conjunction with an
> ] Adaptec 1542 SCSI host (at least with an high-performance OS). This is
> ] said to be caused by HW problems (busmastering conflicts...)

>Actually, I got this setup to work on a puter with NeXT Step 3.1.  (It
>took me a couple of days and a bit of tweaking to get it up though.
>This wasn't just the problem with the PAS/AHA, but 3.1 was pretty
>immature when it came to hw support at the time. Guess 3.2 will be
>better).

Nice to hear it once again: even if you pay for your OS, there are still
bugs...  and they will be solved in the NeXT release :-)


>I guess using it as a joystick interface is not supposed to cause any
>problems. As far as I can remember the problem with the busmastering
>was that if you used the disk when you played sounds, the AHA could
>hold the bus so long that the PAS16 would lock up and you had to
>reboot the puter before you could get it to work again. (Can anyone
>correct me on this ?)  (That is, if you can read it. Think it's
>bedtime for me now ;-) )

That would mean it is a bug in the 1542 driver.  The 1542 busmastering
timing (bus hold/release times etc) can be programmed.

>If I'm right here the only thing that would make linux "safe"
>to use with the PAS and the AHA would be if it transferred 
>smaller blocks to to/from the disk. Don't know if you'd call
>that "better"... but... 

No.  The 1542 transfers requests of any blocksize in small chunks,
usually something like 7us of transfer (at 6MB/second) followed by
5us of silence to allow others some bus access.
The size of the disk transfers is always much larger than these chunks.

Rob
-- 
=========================================================================
| Rob Janssen                | AMPRnet:   rob@pe1chl.ampr.org           |
|                            | AX.25 BBS: PE1CHL@PI8UTR.#UTR.NLD.EU     |
| e-mail: pe1chl@rabo.nl     | Tel. BBS:  +31-30715610 (23:00-07:30 LT) |

------------------------------

From: system@kryton.UUCP (Scott Beckstead)
Subject: Re: School Science Club may distribute Linux...interested?
Date: 10 Dec 93 21:00:42 GMT

rich@mulvey.com writes:

> Roth Mark Daniel (roth@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> : In article <CDvGI7.8t@acsu.buffalo.edu> ferrick@acsu.buffalo.edu (Patrick K
> : >Our high school science club may distribute Linux on floppies as a means o
> : >raising money for projects.  What we're thinking of is that instead of buy
> : >the floppies from us, people might be interested in renting the disks (in
> : >order to make copies of them) at a low rate.  Something like this:
> 
> : Not that I'm against Science Club growth or anything (in fact, I was
> : the founder & president of my high school's science club), but I think
> : that charging money for Linux is against the GNU Public License.
> : While I can't tell you 100% for sure that it's against the letter of
> : the GPL, it's certainly against the spirit in which it was written.
> : Anyone who is well-versed on the GPL is welcome to correct me if I'm
> : wrong; this is just my $.02.
> 
>    I replied directly to the poster, but I may as well reiterate here. :-)
> 
>    It is legal under the GPL to charge a "reasonable copying fee" for
> GPL'd software.  That means that the club would be free to charge for
> copying - once.  After the first time, they're out of luck.  As for
> renting the software, that goes *completely* against the letter and
> spirit of the GPL, which basically says that you can't make a profit
> from it.
> 
>    I did, however, suggest selling support for Linux.  :-)
> 
> - Rich
> -- 
> Rich Mulvey                 Amateur Radio: N2VDS              Rochester, NY
> rich@mulvey.com         "Ignorance should be painful."

   Nowhere in the GPL does it forbid making a profit.  It does however
require that you add value to it to support that profit.  There are many
companies that make a profit from GNU software.  Selling it directly and
charging FOR the software is forbiden but selling the installation and
support is not.  I don't believe that renting the disks that GNU is on
is going to be forbiden either.  
Scott


System Administrator Paradox Alley  F&SF BBS and Usenet News/Mail 
805-492-8789  Thousand Oaks, Ca. The Place For Science Fiction and Fantasy.

------------------------------

From: user1@valis.ampr.ab.ca (Kevin Fluet)
Subject: Re: School Science Club may distribute Linux...interested?
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 13:18:05 GMT

In <VJ2cec1w164w@kryton.UUCP> system@kryton.UUCP (Scott Beckstead) writes:

>rich@mulvey.com writes:

>>    It is legal under the GPL to charge a "reasonable copying fee" for
>> GPL'd software.  That means that the club would be free to charge for
>> copying - once.  After the first time, they're out of luck.  As for
>> renting the software, that goes *completely* against the letter and
>> spirit of the GPL, which basically says that you can't make a profit
>> from it.
>> 
>>    I did, however, suggest selling support for Linux.  :-)
>> 
>> - Rich
>> -- 
>> Rich Mulvey                 Amateur Radio: N2VDS              Rochester, NY
>> rich@mulvey.com         "Ignorance should be painful."

>   Nowhere in the GPL does it forbid making a profit.  It does however
>require that you add value to it to support that profit.  

I just read the GPL through again, and I think you are right.  All it says
is that you can charge for the service of distributing GPL'ed software. 
Period.  It says nothing about "profit" or even "reasonable" fees.  "Free"
in the GPL means "freedom", not "no charge".  All the GPL does is guarantee
your rights to to copy and modify the software with the restriction that you
can't stop others from having the same rights you do.

The way I read it, it does seem to suggest that you can only charge for your
services, not for the software itself, but I can't imagine any situation in
which someone who didn't lift a finger (whether by copying disks or setting
up a BBS) could charge for distributing Linux.  I suppose someone could say,
"If you are using Linux, send me a cheque at this address.", but I don't
think many people would comply.

The only real restriction on you if you sell (or rent) Linux disks is that
you have to honour requests for source code from people they sell disks to. 
Of course, you can charge them for copying the source code too.  :-)

> There are many
>companies that make a profit from GNU software.  Selling it directly and
>charging FOR the software is forbiden but selling the installation and
>support is not.  

I would consider the service of renting the disks itself as an added value. 
Rental is distribution.  Anyone who tells you that putting the latest
Slackware on 50 disks isn't a service needs to try it himself.  It is a huge
pile of work, and people are very willing to pay for the service (support or
not).  I provide Linux support as well, but that is mostly out of a sense of
wanting people to be able to use the disks I sell them, not because I have
to.  I have already done my bit by copying the software.

-- Kevin

======================================================================
Kevin Fluet         Call V.A.L.I.S. Public Access Linux  (403)478-1281
kevin or user1@valis.ampr.ab.ca             Telnet, FTP, Usenet, Email
fluet@ee.ualberta.ca          Ask me about Linux, the FREE Unix clone!

------------------------------

From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: Hierarchies (was: Re: Linux Consortium)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 15:37:34 GMT

In article <2ehpmf$h3e@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
Philip Balister <pbaliste@vt.edu> wrote:
>Lars Wirzenius (wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI) wrote:
>[Excellent description deleted]
>
>: Exactly who belongs to which class, depends on who you ask.  Some people
>: are clear cases: Linus is the creme de la creme (or whatever it is the
>: French say).  Personally, I would put the distribution creators in the top
>: class (even Peter, for his merits are great).
>
>People who flame SLS should probably grep the kernel sources for Peter's
>name. For his work there alone he ranks high. Possibly kernel hackers
>don't make the best distribution organizers, but Peter did great things
>for Linux with the original SLS.
>
>If Linux hackers where as good at customer support and diplomacy as they
>are kernel hacking they'd be rich lawyers instead ;-)

True enough. This reminds me of a the Cosby episode where Vanessa brings
home her fiance to which she'd been engaged for 6 months without telling
her parents. Nice guy incidentally. The following question was posed
(I'm paraphrasing):

"Suppose your favorite dinner was served to you on a garbage can lid.
 Would you find it appetizing?"

Same situation here: Peter has done great work for Linux. However SLS
is like presenting great work on that garbage can lid. Out of date, buggy,
and most importantly unresponsive is unappealing no matter how much good
stuff you've done.

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: dblack@pilot.njin.net (David Alan Black)
Subject: Re: Debate: Time to Remove SLS From archive sites?
Date: 13 Dec 93 12:11:44 GMT

fee@cxf111.rh.psu.edu (Chuck Fee) writes:

>Bill C. Riemers (bcr@bohr.physics.purdue.edu) wrote:
>: I for one would be opposed to this, unless Peter where to request this
>: action himself.  

>I too would love to hear his opinion in this matter, but alas,
>I think he is gone.

>: While true the code in SLS 1.03 is getting old, it still
>: works today as well as the day Peter uploaded it.  

>that's the whole problem! It didn't work right 5 months ago, and
>it hasn't been fixed. Hell, when I ftp to tsx-11.mit.edu,
>the banner when you cd into /pub/linux mentions SLS!! This
>is the problem. we still seem to be pushing braindead software
>on the unsuspecting masses. as I suggested, I think at the very
>least that some sort of warning message should be posted to the
>SLS distribution directory explaining that the distribution is
>no longer activley maintained, and that if you post to c.o.l.*
>and mention you are using SLS 1.03 you will not get any help,
>and will in all likelihood be ignored or flamed.

I have had huge problems with SLS 1.03, but (as I have said elsewhere) have
learned a lot from fixing it....  I would NEVER recommend its use by
anyone, but - "ignored or flamed"??????  I installed Linux for the first
time a month ago, entirely on my own, and (for the usual reasons) SLS
seemed to be the distribution of choice.  All right, a month later it
is (literally) history, but please - cut us some slack!  It is installed
on a lot of machines, and a lot of people have done a lot to get their
installations working, and people need advice and in many cases are
happy to give advice.  It may be time to ditch SLS, but let's not
ostracize the people who are running it!


David Black
dblack@pilot.njin.net



                "I appreciate your . . . appreciation."

                        - Mrs. Emma Peel

------------------------------

From: ian@gl.umbc.edu (Ian Soboroff)
Subject: Re: _Real_ hackers ...
Date: 13 Dec 1993 10:58:28 -0500

In article <CHuHAC.LM@seneca.ix.de>, Harald Milz <hm@seneca.ix.de> wrote:

>*Real* hackers don't even use disks, they use flintstones.

ahem.
_REAL_ hackers get data into the computer by putting their fingers on the
port pins and holistically fluctuating the electricity inherent in the 
human body.

real hackers also read core dumps without a debugger, for fun.

                ian



-- 
+-----------------+------------------------------------------------+
! Ian Soboroff    ! "Dentistry is such a depressing profession...  !
! ian@gl.umbc.edu !   you're always looking down in the mouth!"    !
+-----------------+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

From: ab401@freenet.carleton.ca (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: _Real_ hackers ...
Reply-To: ab401@freenet.carleton.ca
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 16:17:37 GMT

ian@gl.umbc.edu (Ian Soboroff) writes:

>real hackers also read core dumps without a debugger, for fun.

real hackers suspend a magnet on a string, and use _that_ for reading core.

--
     Paul Tomblin, Head             _            _   ____                    
     Automated Test Tools Team     | |          | | |  __|   ___._`.*.'_._ 
    _______________   ______   ____| |________  | |_| |__   +  * .o   u.* `
   /  ________  _  \ |  __  | /  ________  _  \ |  ______|  . ' ' |\^/|  `.
   | |  | |  / / | | | |  | | | | |  |  / / | | | | | |            \V/    
   | |__| | / /__| |_| |  | | | |_|  | / /__| |_| | | |            /_\    
   \ _____/ \__________|  |_|  \___|_| \__________| |_|       === _/ \_ ===
   //
   \\____   Phone: (613) 723-6500x8018      Mail: Gandalf Data Limited
   /  _  \  Fax:   Don't know it yet              130 Colonnade Road South
   | |_| |  Email: ptomblin@gandalf.ca            Nepean, Ontario
   \_____/   or    ab401@freenet.carleton.ca      K2E 7J5 CANADA

    Disclaimer: Maybe after I've worked here for more than a few days,
    Gandalf will let me speak for them.  For now, it's just me talking.
    And it was my idea to put htat Wizard in there, so Mr. Tolkien, please
    don't sue Gandalf.

    "And the trees are all kept equal now,
     with axes, and saws" - RUSH


------------------------------


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