Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #436
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Thu, 16 Dec 93 05:13:11 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #436, Volume #1                Thu, 16 Dec 93 05:13:11 EST

Contents:
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (Sunando Sen)
  Re: fork: try again (Theodore Ts'o)
  Re: Linux meets COSE Standards (Theodore Ts'o)
  Re: Lisp anyone?  How about CMU Lisp?  Garnet? (Brent Benson)
  pl14 kernel compile (Bug Hunter/God Molester/Dark Angel)
  Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux (Sami-Pekka Hallikas)
  Re: not a Linux Consortium (Mark Line)
  dld for Linux? (Craig Anderson)
  Mail Order Linux Workstations (Edwin Tisdale)
  Mach32/ATI & Xwindows (Barry Schiff)
  Re: Yet another benchmark results.. (Ted Chan)
  Linux Compat. Ethernet Adapter (laptop) (Brad Cain)
  SB Pro and CD-ROM (DAVIN GEORGE)
  filesystem & swap decisions for a new system (Doug DeJulio)
  Working ftape 0.9.7/8a + Conner Tape*Stor + Bulk Cartridges (Kusnadi)
  Re: Xfractint under Linux? (Douglas Gleichman)
  Re: Windows emulation  was Re: Microsoft Invented Inferior Personal C (Steve VanDevender)
  Re: Slackware Seyon faults with sig 11 (Robert "Cuda" McNamara)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sens@FASECON.ECON.NYU.EDU (Sunando Sen)
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
Date: 16 Dec 93 00:53:03 GMT

In article <1993Dec15.064421.30482@truffula.sj.ca.us> cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer) writes:

>(What is elvis doing if you hit 'v' by mistake, and how do you make
>it be normal again, anyway?)
>
>Cameron in San Jose, using 80 x 25 console.

Elvis goes into visual marking mode when you press `v', i.e., you can mark a 
block of text by using the cursor keys, and then cut it with `d', or copy it 
with `y'.  To turn off marking, you have to press `v' again.  This is 
something that any decent editor should be able to do.  This is also 
something that the Unix vi (or at least the ones I have seen) cannot do.  
So, please use one of elvis's best features!

Sunando Sen

------------------------------

From: tytso@athena.mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)
Subject: Re: fork: try again
Date: 15 Dec 1993 23:39:17 -0500
Reply-To: tytso@athena.mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)

If you're getting the message "fork: try again", it generally means that
you don't have enough processes configured on your system.  Edit the
file /usr/src/linux/include/linux/tasks.h, and change NR_TASKS from 128
to 256, and recompile your kernel.  That should cure your problem.

                                                - Ted

------------------------------

From: tytso@athena.mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)
Subject: Re: Linux meets COSE Standards
Date: 15 Dec 1993 23:45:50 -0500
Reply-To: tytso@athena.mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)

   From: edmund@sevaxu.cica.es (Edmund Numenberger)
   Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1993 16:13:14 GMT

   As Linux is a clone, I can understand that it doesnt meet
   standards that are not -on the market-.

   But standards for the new UNIX enviroment as proposed 

   X/Open Portability guide XPG3
   System V Interface Definition SVID
   Open Software Foundation Application Enviroment Specification AES

   all these is unified under the banner of Spec 1170 Common API 1.Sept 93

   Who of the Linux community cares about those standard?
   Who is involved in working with this *standards*?
   Can Linux meet this *standards* in the future?
   Are the Standards public now?

If the standards are public, AND the standards don't cost an arm and a
leg (OSI standards have a tendency to cost something like US$100/inch
thickness of paper; and they are *very* verbose --- not by coincidence,
I think, OSI is largely irrelevant now), AND the standards are actually
useful for interoperability (read: enough vendors actually pay attention
to them that it would benefit Linux developers to make Linux be
compliant to those standards) then rest assured that Linux will
eventually be made to work with those standards.  There are a lot of
if's in that statement, though.

There are people working on a DOS emulator, so that they can run DOS
programs; there are people working on a Windows emulators, so they can
run Windows programs; there are people workign on a IBCS emulator, so
they can run SCO unix binaries (like Lotus 1-2-3).  

If there are significant programs which will run only under Spec 1170,
then there will probably be people working on making it happen.  Until
then, though, probably not.

                                                        - Ted

------------------------------

From: brent@ssd.csd.harris.com (Brent Benson)
Subject: Re: Lisp anyone?  How about CMU Lisp?  Garnet?
Date: 16 Dec 1993 02:45:39 GMT
Reply-To: brent@ssd.csd.harris.com

donadio@mxd120.rh.psu.edu (Matthew Donadio) writes:
#
# CLISP and KCL/AKCL have been ported to Linux.  Both support Common
# Lisp, and AKCL has a few extensions to this.  I am also pretty sure
# Scheme has been ported to Linux.
# 

SCM (a screaming Scheme interpreter) and SLIB (a large library of
Scheme code) run great under Linux.  I also use Scheme 48 that ports
with one or two lines of changes.  VSCM also runs under Linux.  Check
out the Scheme FAQ for more information.

--
Brent Benson                     
Harris Computer Systems

------------------------------

From: blackfel@CSOS.ORST.EDU (Bug Hunter/God Molester/Dark Angel)
Subject: pl14 kernel compile
Date: 16 Dec 1993 03:31:25 GMT

Well, I am trying to compile the new pl14 kernel from the clean source
files.  I have run into a problem (what else is new right?).

during MAKE CONFIG
  ld: No such file or directory for crt0.o
  make[1]: *** [configure] Error 1
  make[2]: *** [config] Error 1

during MAKE DEP
  cpp:Memory exhausted
  cpp:Memory exhausted
  make[2]: ***[dep] Error 1
  make[1]: ***[dep] Error 1
  make:  ***[dep] Error 1

Any clues oh mighty Linux Gods?
Robert


------------------------------

From: semi@dream.nullnet.fi (Sami-Pekka Hallikas)
Subject: Re: Linux counter: Usage growth of Linux
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 01:16:03 GMT

Pekka Pietik{inen (pp@lyseo.otol.fi) wrote:
>Rafal Maszkowski (rzm@oso.chalmers.se) wrote:
>>> But most of them do not have internet access.  Most of them are not
>>> able to register to the Linux counter.
>> Registration thru BBS-es would help.
> I think that it would work trough fidonet... But somebody should
> inform the people in Fidonet exactly how to register...

One possible way in Finland is send mail from my Public Linux system (BBS)
Anyone can get access in here. I have limited newsfeed and it goes via UUCP,
but anyway many users newer seen unix tested this system and liked it.
(Linux rules !-D)

-- 
+--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
| semi@dream.nullnet.fi    |       MAIL MEDIA. Do Not Expose to Flame!       |
| samip@garbo.uwasa.fi     +-------------------------------------------------|
| semi@freenet.hut.fi      | Dream World BBS * 358-21-4389843 * 24H * 9600 * |

------------------------------

From: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Mark Line)
Subject: Re: not a Linux Consortium
Date: 16 Dec 93 04:22:41 GMT

wirzeniu@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Lars Wirzenius) writes:

>andrewh@earlham.edu writes:
>> How are you going to make this information available off the
>> net?

>I assume that the Distribution HOWTO will be posted to c.o.l.announce,
>like all the others.

c.o.l.a. is what you consider "off the net"?

>The only difference between the Distribution HOWTO and LC is
>that the DH doesn't have a (to repeat myself) pompous, official-looking
>(but completely unofficial) name or image.

In the copy of the Distribution HOWTO I just pulled down from
c.o.l.a., the following attributes apply:

(a) it is called the "The Linux Distribution HOWTO";
(b) it is written by mdw, who is also the coordinator of The Linux
    Documentation Project;
(c) its home is sunsite;
(d) there are no other distribution guides regularly posted to c.o.l.a.

Please note that the HOWTO is *not* called "Matt Welsh's Linux
Distribution HOWTO", "A Linux Distribution HOWTO", nor "The Distribution
HOWTO". I would very much like to know how it is that you can claim
that this document doesn't have an official-looking name or image. I
don't find this document pompous, but then I don't judge pomposity
based on the NotInventedHere syndrome. If it were the case that Matt
didn't know what he was talking about, then his HOWTO might be
considered pompous. I certainly wouldn't call it pompous if it
contained the same information but were not written by a
non-old-time-activist.

Oh, and to those of you who would prefer I distance myself from this
thread: Tough Shit -- use your kill-file or simply skip over my
postings when you read c.o.l.m.

-- Mark

====================================================================
Mark P. Line                       Phone: +1-206-733-6040
Open Pathways                        Fax: +1-206-733-6040
P.O. Box F                         Email: markline@henson.cc.wwu.edu
Bellingham, WA 98227-0296
====================================================================

------------------------------

From: c4craig@csn.org (Craig Anderson)
Subject: dld for Linux?
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 07:46:34 GMT

Is a dynamic load library such as dld available for Linux?

Craig H. Anderson
C4 Network, Inc.
518 17th Street, Suite 1400
Denver, CO 80202
    (303) 825-8183
FAX (303) 893-6510
c4craig@csn.org

------------------------------

From: edwin@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Edwin Tisdale)
Subject: Mail Order Linux Workstations
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 93 05:39:51 GMT

Since my last posting on the topic, I have received requests from
other mail order Linux workstation vendors to include them in my
postings.  I would be glad to include more vendors in this list
and post it from time to time.  I have not dealt with any of these
vendors except 20/20 Technologies so I cannot recommend them to you.
But I have received numerous glowing testimonials for some of them
so perhaps people who have dealt with them will post a followup
to this article and tell us more about them.

In order to get a feel for the prices these vendors were charging,
I asked each of them to give me a quote for the following configuration:

*       66 MHz 486DX2 with 256 KB cache and VESA Local Bus
*       16 MB 70 ns System Memory
*       32 bit IDE Controller (VLB)
*       340 MB Hard Disk Drive
*       Dual floppy disk drives
*       32 bit 2 MB 1280x1024 Super VGA graphics accelerator (VLB)
*       17" 0.26 mm dot pitch Non-Interlaced color monitor
*       16 bit 10 Base T ethernet card
*       Mini-tower case with 230 Watt power supply
*       Keyboard and Microsoft compatible mouse

All of these vendors install Linux on the machines that they sell
but provide varying amounts of support for it.  You should also
enquire about the exact details of the system that you are getting
including the manufacture of each component or chip set used.

Enjoy, Bob Tisdale (edwin@cs.ucla.edu)

                20/20 Technologies
                1786 Westwood Boulevard
                West Los Angeles, CA 90024
                Tel: (310) 441-8855
                     (800) 486-2020
                Fax: (310) 441-8869
                Net: ahou@netcom.com
                Price: $2540
                Contact: Moujan Ahouraian

                Field Technology, Inc.
                33 Danbury Road
                Wilton, CT 06897
                Tel: (203) 761-9363
                Fax: (203) 761-9358
                BBS: (203) 761-9368
                Net: linux@fieldtech.com
                     fldtech!linux
                Price: $3300

                K and K Systems
                PO Box 47804
                Plymouth, MN 55447-0804
                Tel: (612) 475-1527
                Fax: (612) 449-0488
                Net: gk@kksys.com
                     gk@kksys.mn.org
                Price: $????
                Contact: Greg Kemnitz

                SW Technology
                251 West Renner Suite 229
                Richardson, TX 75080
                Tel: (214) 907-0871
                Net: swt@netcom.com
                Price: $3445
                Contact: Marvin Wu

------------------------------

From: bschiff@stc.lockheed.com (Barry Schiff)
Subject: Mach32/ATI & Xwindows
Date: 9 Dec 93 17:37:13 GMT
Reply-To: bschiff@stc.lockheed.com

I Have an ATI Ultra PRO VLB with 2MB memory. I use X under linux (Xfree 2.0).
The mach32 server appears to only support clock rates up to 80. However I
would like to run 1280x1024 which requires at least 110 clock and at 74hz
requires 135. I believe my chip supports these clock rates. My monitor 
(NEC 6FG) support the required frequencies. Now heres the question:

        How can I get this resolution and refresh rate under linux and XFREE 2.0?
        Does anyone know of a mach32 server that support higher clocks?
        Is there any other server I can use that support my card and
        the higher clocks (the 1814A (or whatever the IBM one is) does
        not support anything higher the 1024x768 and leaves my monitor funny
        when existing the xwindow system. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks.

------------------------------

From: twc@Saigon.COM (Ted Chan)
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Yet another benchmark results..
Date: 15 Dec 93 18:28:56 GMT

From article <1993Dec09.025654.12591@ksmith.com>, by keith@ksmith.com (Keith Smith):
> 
>      Computer                             Time spent
> 
> 486DX2-66 EISA/VL 16Mb RAM
> running Linux (Slackware 1.1.0).
> gcc compiler.
> Single user                               27 sec.
> 
> Uh, Uh,  No way,  I got 46 seconds under Linux, and SCO, on a 486DX2/66
> E/V with 20MB/12MB RAM.  There is no way this box runs almost TWICE as
> fast as TWO different machines of mine, with different brand
> motherboards.

Seems reasonable to me.  I got 31 sec. with a 486DX2/66 running UnixWare 1.0
with X up with a bunch of clients going (but single user).  GCC 2.5.6,
CFLAGS ='-O2 -m486'.  I would expect something leaner like Linux to be
faster still....


--twc

------------------------------

From: brad@bach.udel.edu (Brad Cain)
Subject: Linux Compat. Ethernet Adapter (laptop)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 06:22:38 GMT

I have a laptop that i'm running linux on.  I would like to 
know if there are any "linux compatible" parallel port
ethernet adapters.  If anyone has any experience with using
linux networking on a laptop, please e-mail me.  thanks

brad


-- 
****************************************************************************
brad@ravel.udel.edu            Brad Cain                               N3NAF
cain@snow-white.ee.udel.edu    University of Delaware Electrical Engineering

------------------------------

From: davin.george@welcom.gen.nz (DAVIN GEORGE)
Subject: SB Pro and CD-ROM
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1993 23:35:00 GMT


J>  Is Linux compatible with the SB Pro CD-ROM interface?  With the Doub
J>Omni CD, it looks like a good deal.  I may also consider the CD-ROM ve
J>of Linux.  Any advice for an interface card?

The Yggdrasil Version is definitely compatiable. I've been using this for
a couple of months with this specific setup.

                                                Catch Ye Later
                                                 Davin George


    WinQwk 2.0 a#0

------------------------------

From: ddj+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio)
Subject: filesystem & swap decisions for a new system
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1993 07:16:04 GMT


I've been playing around with Linux, and I've decided to make it my
primary OS.  I'm about to nuke my two 430 meg partitions and my 64 meg
swap partition, and lay the disk out in a semi-permenant
configuration.  What filesystem should I use for an over-800 meg
partition?  I know there's ext2fs, and I've also vaguely heard of the
xiafs.  What other choices are there?  What's the relative
stability/performance?  My hardware is an Adaptec AHA1542C SCSI
controller and an HP gigabyte disk drive and Texel CD-ROM, if any of
that has any bearing (I hope to get an EISA SCSI controller within a
year).

Also, for swapspace, can anyone sumarize a cost-benefit analysis of
swapfile vs. partition?  I would expect swapping to a partition to
give better performance -- is this effect significant?  If I use a
swapfile, will Linux grow it if it needs more VM, as some OSes out
there will?

Thanks for your help.
-- 
Doug DeJulio
ddj+@cmu.edu

------------------------------

From: kusnadi@desert-gw.ece.arizona.edu (Kusnadi)
Subject: Working ftape 0.9.7/8a + Conner Tape*Stor + Bulk Cartridges
Date: 16 Dec 1993 07:47:24 GMT

Hi folks,
I would like to share with you what I've been through with
        "ftape-0.9.7/8a + Conner C250MQT + bulk tape cartridges"
I have been following the ftape crussade since ftape-0.9.6.pl13, but I know
nothing about programming QIC-80 floppy tape drive. So if you see
anything funny about this story please correct me.

The Conner Tape*Stor C250MQT came in a cool looking box along with manuals,
basic backup software for MSDOS (called cbbdos) and MSWINDOWS (called cbbwin)
It also came with a free (?) 3M DC2120 cartridge preformated in XIMAT.
The package seems to work just fine under DOS, but then here's the story
begins --- Linux' ftape! (hold on,....it's an happy ending story!).

In term of "mt -f /dev/ftape rewind" and later "mt -f /dev/ftape reten",
all of the ftape releases work straight out with the drive. With the early
releases (ftape-0.9.6.pl13 and ftape-0.9.7), "tar -cv dir1 dir2 ...>/dev/ftape"
works just fine with the 3M XIMAT. Unfortunately when I tried to compare the
backup files using "tar -dvf /dev/ftape dir1 dir2 ...", I got a lot of
differences. My guess was that there were a lot of bad spots in the tape,
so I sacrificed the XIMAT tape and did formating using cbbdos. It turned out
that cbbdos has different parameters of formating to what supposed to be
QIC-80 format (I guess). Here are the cbbdos parameters :
        segment_per_track = 150 (OK)
        track_per_cartridge = 28 (OK)
        max_floppy_side = 6 (?????, I believe it should be 7)
        max_floppy_track = 149 (OK)
        max_floppy_sector = 128 (OK)
With this format the ftape driver will terminate since the parameter didn't
match the formula (somewhere in ftape-rw.c) :
        max_floppy_side = (segment_per_track * track_per_tape - 1) /
                          segment_per_head;
Eliminating "- 1" out of the formula will force ftape driver to work with
cbbdos format. I did try this too, but I just didn't think it's a good idea.
Luckily, the windows version of the Conner's backup (cbbwin) gives the correct
parameters and works just fine with the Linux ftape driver. However, I still
got a lot of ':files differ' messages with the old release of ftape.
By this time I knew that ecc.c and kernel-interface.c need improvement.

When ftape-0.9.8 (and then 0.9.8a) was released, I was so excited since I
want my drive badly. There have been a lot of improvements in the ecc code
and the kernel-interface. Unfortunately, the improvements (like smart-stop,
error statistics, etc) in the other codes (not sure which one) introduce
new bugs (or reveal old bugs, I guess). The driver just goes to heaven when
there's error in the tape (bad spot?) with 'missing status stop bit' or so.
The tar returns with I/O error and the driver gets locked. Turning off
the power is the only way to unlock it (hard reset didn't do any good!).

I finally manage the ftape working with the Conner Tape*Stor in a weird
configuration. Here is my ftape setting :
The ftape-0.9.8a --- all of the original files from the package except
    fdc-io.c, ftape-io.c, ftape-rw.c.
I replaced these files with those of ftape-0.9.7 with 2 minor changes :
    1. change of NR_BUFFERS somewhere in ftape-rw.c to NR_FTAPE_BUFFERS,
    2. change of ECC_CORRECT somehere in ftape-rw.c to ECC_OK.
I also rearranged vendor.h (from the original ftape-0.9.8) by
    moving
    "{ 0x0014a, wake_up_mountain,  "Archive XL9250i, Conner C250MQ" }, \"
    to the second line of the QIC117_VENDORS definition struct.
    (I know it doesn't make sense, but it gives my drive a correct
    wake up command, i.e. "Archive XL9250i, Conner C250MQ" instead of
    "Archive 5580i").
I did nothing else except what was told in the ftape instructions.
And also I only format the tape using cbbwin, the Conner's basic backup for
Windows (I know there is an upgrade program from Conner for another five bugs
 -- see PC Magazine).

With this setting, I can backup and restore 120M tar files (hundreds of
files in scattered directories) without any problem (except that it takes
about 45 minutes to complete!).
Here's how I tested the ftape :
In every directory of the file system, I create a check-sum file using cksum
command I grabbed from sunsite.unc.edu. Then I used the tar command to do
the backup :
        "tar -cv dir1 dir2 dir3 ... >/dev/ftape"
Of course I can still work with my computer while the tape is cranking.
Aborting the tar using ^c in the middle of operation works fine too.
Then I compared the tape with the original file system :
        "tar -dvf /dev/ftape dir1 dir2 dir3 ..."
Thus far I have no problem at all, even though I use an el cheapo ($ 11.57)
bulk tape cartridge (not the free 3M cartridge).
Finally, I deleted the original files from the harddisk and restored the
backup using :
        "tar -xvf /dev/ftape"
To check the file system integrity, I tested the restored file by creating
new checksum files and comparing them with the old ones.
So far I got no difference between the original files and the restored ones
in term of their checksums.

From now I feel confidence with my ftape and I would like to thank
Bas Laarhoven and friends for making the ftape driver working.
Hopefully in the next release, most of the bugs are eliminated.

Regards,

Kusnadi.


------------------------------

From: p86884@tcville.edsg.hac.com (Douglas Gleichman)
Subject: Re: Xfractint under Linux?
Date: 16 Dec 93 00:54:30 GMT

In article <1993Dec13.211644.16466@noao.edu>,
Steve Wampler <swampler@noao.edu> wrote:
>Has anyone succeeded in getting xfractint fully running under Linux?

There is a binary version at sunsite.unc.edu in the directory
/pub/Linux/X11/xapps/math called xfract201-linux.tgz.  You can zoom by 
holding down the right button and dragging out a box.


------------------------------

From: stevev@miser.uoregon.edu (Steve VanDevender)
Crossposted-To: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,alt.fan.mike-dahmus
Subject: Re: Windows emulation  was Re: Microsoft Invented Inferior Personal C
Date: 16 Dec 93 00:17:15

In article <CI3G21.Ats@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
craig@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Craig Lewis) writes:

   Then why does Windows crash at least once a session?  I've been using DOS 
   since 3.31 was new, and I've had DOS 4.0 crash on me once.

If you really think about it, having Windows crash more than once
a session is really bad, although once Windows has crashed out I
wonder how you can consider yourself in the same Windows session
afterwards.

In this case, length does matter.  Lots of operating systems will
crash once per session, if the session ends with a crash; the
real value is in how long the session is.  (Windows: 1 hour;
Linux: 1 year (or more).)
--
Steve VanDevender       stevev@greylady.uoregon.edu
"Bipedalism--an unrecognized disease affecting over 99% of the population.
Symptoms include lack of traffic sense, slow rate of travel, and the
classic, easily recognized behavior known as walking."

------------------------------

From: rob@cad4.lbl.gov (Robert "Cuda" McNamara)
Subject: Re: Slackware Seyon faults with sig 11
Date: 16 Dec 1993 08:34:38 GMT
Reply-To: rob@cad4.lbl.gov

Patrick J. Volkerding (volkerdi@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu) wrote:
: In article <2em296$7ev@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> els769p@fawlty10.eng.monash.edu.au (JJ Won) writes:
: >Gday,
: >
: >I am having trouble getting seyon to dial anything. Everytime I click on the
: >dial button, the seyon complains of sig fault 11 and says it's exiting when
: >I press any button. Any idea? 

[ remainder of message deleted ] 

: For some reason, compiling with optimization doesn't work with Seyon under
: libc.4.4.4. If you don't use -O or -O2, it will work.

: I've uploaded a fixed Seyon package to ftp.cdrom.com.

It has something to do with the functions that parse commented files.
The same thing happens when I edit the setup file.  If you remove
the blank lines from these commented files, Seyon does not crash (although
I admit that compiling without optimization is a much better fix :^)

--
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
 Rob McNamara                      =     Can't you see?
 rob@cad4.lbl.gov                  -     It all makes perfect sense
 LBL EE CAD/CAE software support   =     Expressed in dollars and cents,
 Vote Green!                       -     Pounds, shillings, and pence.
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+


------------------------------


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