Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #795
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Fri, 11 Mar 94 01:13:07 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #795, Volume #1                Fri, 11 Mar 94 01:13:07 EST

Contents:
  CDROM review/Slackware Q ("Stilwell, Don")
  Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering") (Alasdair Grant)
  Windows for Workgroups crashes Linux ? (Christian Kranz)
  ETH0 Reciever Overrun (Paul Tomblin)
  Re: Money, the root of evil (Xski)
  Changing a key. (Juan A. Varela F.)
  Re: DOOM for X (Amancio Hasty Jr)
  Downloading question (Alex Feely)
  HELP: Serious problem... (Andrew Hutton)
  Re: "ls" IN TECHNICOLOR!!!! (David Wright)
  Re: MINICOM will not work with my modem 7N1 (John Free)
  Re: OpenGL on Linux? (Erik Nygren)
  Re: GOD SPEAKS ON LINUX! (Hamish Macdonald)
  Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering") (John F. Haugh II)
  Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering") (John F. Haugh II)
  Re: Linux Journal (David Lesher)
  An idea to cut down noise (Gregory Owen)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stilwell, Don" <stilwell_don@semail.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: CDROM review/Slackware Q
Date: 10 Mar 1994 12:46:42 -0500
Reply-To: stilwell_don@semail.jsc.nasa.gov

I have a personal review of two Linux CDROMs along with a question at the end
about Slackware.

I recently purchased a copy of the Fall 1993 edition of the Yggdrasil LGX CDROM
for almost $60 (if shipping and COD charges are included).  I installed it on
my home-brew 80386-40 MHz machine (which has 8 MB of RAM, two 124 MB Maxtor IDE
drives, a Mitsumi FX001D double speed CDROM drive, and an ATI Graphics Vantage
Graphics Accelerator Card with 1MB on-board).  The installation didn't go very
well but I was finally able to get X-windows to work in 640x480 (VGA)
monochrome mode.  A major problem for me appears to have been the older version
of XFree86 (ver. 1.3) that comes with the Fall release of LGX -- it just didn't
have any accelerated color graphics support for the ATI Graphics Vantage card. 
I eventually was able to ftp (from Sunsite or tsx-11) a version of an 8514A
server (designed for my card) and was able to use it with my system to get
1024x768 graphics.  Not wonderful on the eyesight, but usable.  Another problem
with the Yggdrasil disk was that it was not possible to automatically install
small chunks of software on your hard disk.  After you load the basic 25 MB
runtime system, you have your choice of loading about 12 different (mostly
large) packages, such as 60 MB of /usr/bin and /usr/lib binaries, or the Andrew
system (size=?), or gcc compiler and tools (size=?).  (I don't have all of the
information in front of me now, so I can't be more specific).  Unfortunately, I
only have 100 MB for my Linux filesytem and an additional 14MB for swap.  I
wasn't pleased with how everything came out, so I decided I would get another
CDROM.  On the positive side, Yggdrasil's manual is clear and well written.

I then purchased Trans-Ameritech's new Linux Disk.  Cost is about $30, I think.
 It didn't come with a manual, but I was able to install the Slackware 1.1.1
distribution without problems.  To get X-windows to work with XFree86 was far
easier (but still some work) because this Slackware distribution comes with ver
2.0 which has accelerated drivers for the MACH8 chip in the ATI Graphics
Vantage card.  This XFree86 is much better than ver. 1.3, all around!   I got
800x866 256-colors to work right away and other resolutions followed quickly. 
I needed to rebuild my kernel at the end to get everything (especially my bus
mouse, deskjet printer, and CDROM drive) to work right, but everything worked
out in the end.  (By the way, I used the patchlevel 15 kernel from the net to
do this, but it probably would have worked out fine with the pl 14 kernel that
comes with the disk.)  The guys from Trans-Ameritech were also far more helpful
than the Yggdrasil developer was.  Also, it is possible to install small
individual pieces of the Slackware distribution -- much better on my disk
space.  The only thing I would suggest is that they consider putting together a
manual.

Given my experience, I would recommend the Trans-Ameritech disk to anyone who
asked right now.  Maybe someone else with a different hardware system would
rate the Yggdrasil disk higher.  I also think that the Winter version of the
Yggdrasil disk might get a much better review from me, but it isn't out yet. 
It would appear that Adam Richter's goal is to make a new distribution
(CDROM-based) of Linux that will be infinitely easier to install than any other
version and will support the maximum number of hardware items.  He has used the
tcl/tk toolkit to some advantage in this regard.  It is a laudable goal and one
that may push Linux into direct competition with Windows NT, Chicago, OS/2,
etc, if he is successful.   It is something that the Linux world needs and I
expect that the Winter release will be much better.  I didn't try to return my
Yggdrasil disk because I wrote in the manual, but maybe I can talk them into
trading my unused Fall edition for the Winter release when it comes out.   Otherwise,
I guess, I just wasted some cash.  

Now my question for Slackware users:  given that I can install software
packages in relatively small chunks, how do I uninstall a package or two if I
decide later that I didn't need it.  (For example, I installed Objective-C and
a bunch of LISP examples for EMACS?  How do I delete them using a script or
other administration tool?  Do I have to do it by hand?)

Could you please answer via E-mail since I don't monitor this list regularly. 
(I read the digests irregularly when they come out on tsx-11).  Thanks.

Don Stilwell
(My easiest address to type is:  stilwell@tenet.edu)

PS -- I'm a newbie.  Just started Linuxing.




------------------------------

From: ag129@ucs.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering")
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 19:41:14

In article <SBO.94Mar10094554@bcars656.bnr.ca> sbo@bcars656.bnr.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:
>John> I don't know which companies you've been dealing with, but if you
>John> call IBM and the bug is known, you can get a set of update
>John> floppies in your hand in under 24 hours.

>What if the bug is not known ?

If it's mission-critical (unlikely for a C compiler), just call it in
as a severity-1 problem and they will work round the clock to fix it.
I even had a fix delivered by taxi once.

There was a case of another vendor's TP software that failed on a 
particular date; the problem was reported in New Zealand, the vendor
worked through the night in the US and by the time the date changed 
in Europe they had shipped fixes to all customers.

------------------------------

From: kranz@sent3.uni-duisburg.de (Christian Kranz)
Subject: Windows for Workgroups crashes Linux ?
Date: 10 Mar 1994 15:45:41 GMT


We are working with two groups at the same Net. The one group
use Unix / Linux with TCP/IP, the others Microsoft Windows 
for Workgroups (WfW).

Every one or two days, the process table in Linux is filled up
with rpc.portmap zombies and we have to reboot all Linux machines.
The other Unix-machines (NeXT, HP) are stable.

I suspect but can not prove, that WfW packages are the 
cause for this behavior. (We are on a very big net and
there can bee many other causes)

Has someone good or bad experience with WfW and Linux ?

  Ch. Kranz

------------------------------

From: ptomblin@gandalf.ca (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: ETH0 Reciever Overrun
Date: 10 Mar 1994 10:41:11 -0500

We occassionally get this message, and when it happens one or more machines
have to be rebooted.

We are running a mixed bag of machines, almost all with SLS 1.03, some with
kernel pl12, others with pl14f.  It happens on the pl14f ones as well as the
pl12 ones.  I've installed the rpc 0.9 patches on all the machines.

The program we are running uses rpc to talk to a daemon on several other
machines, which then launches several other programs on those machines, all
of which talk to the program on the original machine.

-- 
Paul Tomblin, Head - Automated Test Tools Team.
Gandalf Canada Limited
This is not an official statement of Gandalf, or of Vicki Robinson.
"To err is human, but to really foul things up requires the root password"

------------------------------

From: jxski@wiretap.spies.com (Xski)
Subject: Re: Money, the root of evil
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 20:42:50 GMT

Just to pick nits, the original quote is
'The love of money is the root of all eveil'.

-jmr


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 01:25:53 CST
From: Juan A. Varela F. <U35334@uicvm.uic.edu>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Changing a key.

HI.  I HAVE A LINUX BOX WITH X AND MOTIF.  MINE IS A SPANISH KEYBOARD
WHICH IS MAPPED WITH A XMODMAP COMMAND.  I WANT TO MAKE MY NUMERIC
KEY-PAD + (PLUS) TO BECOME MY CLEAR KEY WHEN RUNNING X3270.  I KNOW
I AM SUPPOSED TO DO AN EVENT TABLE TO MODIFY THAT KEY (THAT IS THE ONLY
KEY I WANT TO CHANGE).  HOWEVER, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I TRY, I DO NOT
SEEM TO BE ABLE TO DO IT.  CAN SOMEBODY LEND ME A HAND ON THIS?  I
WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT.  THANKS IN ADVANCE.

*  Juan A. Varela F.                                U35334@UICVM.UIC.EDU      *
*  University of Illinois at Chicago                72070.3046@COMPUSERVE.COM *
*                                                  TELEPHONE (708)771-9015    *
*  Te quiero flor de los mares,                          FAX (708)771-9049    *
*  verte libre y soberana!                                                    *

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.apps
From: hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr)
Subject: Re: DOOM for X
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 18:42:07 GMT

In article <1994Mar10.123047.15912@swan.pyr> iiitac@swan.pyr (Alan Cox) writes:
>In article <hastyCMEw58.FMr@netcom.com> hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:
>>I really doubt that a direct access to a fast svga card on a local bus would
>>compare in performance to the client-server model of X.
>I thought the same, but time it one day. XShm is incredibly quick, you
>just tell the x server do this shm object and carry on. On something like a 
>6 cpu sparc its even better as X is rendering your image while you work
>on the next one
>>
>>If you ask me X is very, very broken in this respect. 
>Apparently not.
>
Apparently yes, any client-server model which forces you to always have
two processes to communicate with each other is a broken architecture.


BTW: I was the one who went out and got all the little pieces to implement
Xshm for 386bsd....

Jon Tombs and I improved image read/write to the S3 cards by a factor 
of 10 by improving the routines which did the bulk transfer to the 
card. 

It is significant faster to download an image to a vga than to load
the image to a shared memory segment, make an IPC call, do a process
context switch, go through X and then finally download the image
to the card. 

Also, it depends on the application with mpeg_play and my P66 there
was no performance improvement  using  Xsmh, X was the bottleneck.
I managed to get 27 frames per second with no dithering and I got
17 frames per second  with Xshm. So it was either X or my S3 928
card. The S3 928 card is very comparable in performance to 
sun's gx.

My guess is that Xshm performance is directly proportional to the
size of the buffer upto the overall bandwith of the svga card.
Some of these new sgva cards internally have in excess of 240 mega byte/sec
transfer rate so their bandwith is limited by the bus interface.

        Amancio







-- 
FREE unix, gcc, tcp/ip, X, open-look, interviews, tcl/tk, MIME, midi, sound
at  freebsd.cdrom.com:/pub/FreeBSD
Amancio Hasty,  Consultant |
Home: (415) 495-3046       |  
e-mail hasty@netcom.com    |  ftp-site depository of all my work:    
ahasty@cisco.com           |  sunvis.rtpnc.epa.gov:/pub/386bsd/X

------------------------------

From: Alex Feely <af2e+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Downloading question
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 11:43:26 -0500


        Greetings.. I know my Unix system has kermit, but I'm buying a
fresh new DOS box and I want to bring Linux onto it. How can I
transport files to that, especially MS-Kermit?? I've never worked
data-transfer from a Dos box before, although I've used them for
non-network stuff.

--
Alex Feely



===============================================================================
I grow tired of continuous games and trivalities, torturous endeavors and 
continued pain, I want the sky and I want to keep it for once.
af2e@andrew.cmu.edu
===============================================================================

------------------------------

From: ajh@zeus.achilles.org (Andrew Hutton)
Subject: HELP: Serious problem...
Date: 7 Mar 1994 07:34:51 GMT

I have a serious problem with my system that I need to get cleared up 
right away.   With any pl15 kernel my system gradually slows to the point 
of unusability about 13-20 hours after a re-boot.  THis is a problem as 
I'm due to go on the net in a few weeks and this is the only problem I 
have to fix....

Please help me.  Any ideas would be great..  using pl15 without the 
cluster patches.

PS.  I tried in col.help anbd got no reply.  I have many users who are 
getting pretty upset at me for this...  y'know screams of Get SCO, at 
least we know the bugs it has!  I can't take it much longer :-)


--
Achilles Network Services - Do you need an Internet Account or SLIP connect?
(613)824-6807 (613)841-0513 (613)841-0524 (613)841-0584 Kanata-(613)741-1962
    Looking to save some $$$ on your Internet access?  Give us a call.  

------------------------------

From: dmw@prism1.prism1.com (David Wright)
Subject: Re: "ls" IN TECHNICOLOR!!!!
Date: 9 Mar 94 17:19:48 GMT

>>>>> "hkennedy" == hkennedy  <hkennedy@mercury.ncat.edu> writes:

  hkennedy> Should be at any linux ftp site. Look under file utilites. I forgot the
  hkennedy> name. This was the first thing that I turned off!

        If you don't like it, check the default aliases (/etc/profile, etc.).
Personally, I think it makes it MUCH easier to discriminate a given file in a
full directory (say one compressed file among a bunch of uncompressed files).


                                                        Dave
--
  ____________________________________________________________________________
 |        /\ /          | Prism Computer Applications        |  David Wright  |
 |      -/--\--         | 14650 Detroit Ave, Suite LL40      | dmw@Prism1.COM |
 |      /____\          | Lakewood, OH 44107  USA            |  216-228-1400  |

------------------------------

From: free@manitou.com (John Free)
Subject: Re: MINICOM will not work with my modem 7N1
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:39:18 GMT

dawkins@sound.rz-berlin.mpg.de (Kyle Dawkins) writes:

>Hi there. I just got hold of MINICOM 1.6 and I like it.
>The only problem I have is that I cannot get it to work with my
>2400 baud GVC (hayes compatible) modem in 7N1 mode: I need to use
>7N1 to log into school but it won't work because all of the AT commands
>get send to the modem as 7 bits commands and the modem doesn't recognise
>them. It works fine in 8 bit mode though.
>Is there something I have not set properly? Why does Kermit work
>perfectly in 2400,7N1 mode and not MINICOM?

Minicom 1.6 works fine for me on a ZyXel 1496-e with a dialing
directory containing both 7N1 and 8N1 setups. You'd best look elsewhere
for your problem -- if you use the dialing directory, you don't need
to type AT commands.
-- 
free@Manitou.com (John Free) 40 Manor Rd E., Toronto M4S1P8 tel:416-488-8681
uunet!uunet.ca!opeongo!free

------------------------------

From: nygren@athena.mit.edu (Erik Nygren)
Crossposted-To: comp.graphics.opengl
Subject: Re: OpenGL on Linux?
Date: 11 Mar 1994 05:05:35 GMT

In article <philip-080394084637@mackerel.cs.wits.ac.za>, philip@cs.wits.ac.za (Philip Machanick) writes:
|> $100,000 commercial. I think there is also a redistribution royalty, but
|> I'm not totally certain of that. The university licence is only $500, but
|> distribution is restricted to one university at that price. It would be a
|> better proposition to reimplement it from the spec than to buy a commercial
|> licence (assuming you have a huge amount of spare time...).
|> 
|> I personally believe SGI should consider a Linux port as a way of spreading
|> cheap GL terminals (and hence increasing the market for high-end systems)
|> but this is unlikely for 2 reasons:
|> 
|> o they regard GL as the family inheritance and are unlikely to let it
|>   out of their hands without keeping tight control over it (hence the
|>   "Open" in the name?)
|> o if people are prepared to pay big money for the licence why should they
|>   worry about people who want it for nothing?

Another possibility would be for a company who already has the $100,000
source license to build it for Linux and then sell the Linux binaries
for a reasonable price (in the $50 to $500 range).  For most people
this would still be an acceptable solution.  I don't mind paying for OpenGL
for Linux as much as I mind not being able to get OpenGL at all just because
Linux is a free operating system.

Are there any companies out there who already have the source license
would be willing to sell Linux binaries for a reasonable price?  The
royalty that needs to be paid for each copy is only about $5.

If someone with a University license built binaries, would they be able
to give them to someone with a corporate license to resell?

--- Erik Nygren

------------------------------

From: Hamish.Macdonald@bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux,comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.development,comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: GOD SPEAKS ON LINUX!
Date: 10 Mar 1994 18:50:05 GMT

>>>>> On 09 Mar 1994 20:54:09 EST,
>>>>> In message <LJT3.94Mar9205410@PL122b.lehigh.edu>,
>>>>> ljt3@PL122b.lehigh.edu (Lewis) wrote:

Lewis> Running Amiga Linux, I assume. :-)

There's no such thing.

There's "Linux/68k", which just happens to only run on Amigas at the
moment.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering")
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 01:51:13 GMT

In article <SBO.94Mar10094554@bcars656.bnr.ca> sbo@bcars656.bnr.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:
>>>>>> "John" == John F Haugh <jfh@rpp386> writes:
>John> I don't know which companies you've been dealing with, but if you
>John> call IBM and the bug is known, you can get a set of update
>John> floppies in your hand in under 24 hours.
>
>What if the bug is not known ?

Then you get the fix 24 hours after it's made.

>No. You won't get a number in the phone book for GCC support :-) But
>with little effort you should be able to get one. One question you could
>ask to the net is: "Where can I get commercial support for GCC?". Try it
>and see what answers you'll get.

And if I'm a grocery store with no access to "the net", how do I get
support?
-- 
John F. Haugh II  [ NRA-ILA ] [ Kill Barney ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151 [GOP][DoF #17][PADI][ENTJ]   @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
 There are three documents that run my life: The King James Bible, the United
 States Constitution, and the UNIX System V Release 4 Programmer's Reference.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: gnu.misc.discuss
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: compiler quality (was "Reverse-engineering")
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 01:58:14 GMT

In article <ag129.554.2D7F783F@ucs.cam.ac.uk> ag129@ucs.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>In article <SBO.94Mar10094554@bcars656.bnr.ca> sbo@bcars656.bnr.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes:
>>John> I don't know which companies you've been dealing with, but if you
>>John> call IBM and the bug is known, you can get a set of update
>>John> floppies in your hand in under 24 hours.
>
>>What if the bug is not known ?
>
>If it's mission-critical (unlikely for a C compiler), just call it in
>as a severity-1 problem and they will work round the clock to fix it.
>I even had a fix delivered by taxi once.
>
>There was a case of another vendor's TP software that failed on a 
>particular date; the problem was reported in New Zealand, the vendor
>worked through the night in the US and by the time the date changed 
>in Europe they had shipped fixes to all customers.

I've done better than that.  One of the big financial companies in NYC
had a problem with a C library module.  I recompiled just the failing
.c file and produced a fix kit that would patch their libc.a on every
single RS/6000 platform they had at their office (about 400, many running
at different levels).  All of this was handled within 2 hours on the
original call and the fix was sent over the Internet with immediate
confirmation from the customer.

The amount of resource a large company can turn onto a serious problem
is simply amazing to watch.  I've worked on customer accounts where half
a dozen staff members were sent to two or three different cities just to
work a problem.  I'd like to see programmers working in their free time
without pay fly to Hong Kong from Texas to fix an X.25 problem ...
-- 
John F. Haugh II  [ NRA-ILA ] [ Kill Barney ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151 [GOP][DoF #17][PADI][ENTJ]   @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
 There are three documents that run my life: The King James Bible, the United
 States Constitution, and the UNIX System V Release 4 Programmer's Reference.

------------------------------

From: wb8foz@netcom.com (David Lesher)
Subject: Re: Linux Journal
Reply-To: wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 19:01:23 GMT

I got my copy last night, and I hadn't even subscribed yet!

(Robert Young drove down from CT & gave out samples at a Linux talk.) 
-- 
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close...........(v)301 56 LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close)....kibo# 777............pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead..............vr....................20915-1433

------------------------------

From: gowen@allegro.cs.tufts.edu (Gregory Owen)
Subject: An idea to cut down noise
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 04:40:30 GMT


        I've been rolling this idea around in my head for a while, and
while I'm not in a position to do anything about it, I thought I'd
bring it up and maybe people will like it, and maybe someone will try
it.

        As I understand it, on Compuserve there are support forums
where users ask questions, companies answer them, and answers get
entered into a question-answer database, so users can refer to the
database before asking the question.  Now, the largest problem with
the comp.os.linux groups is the high volume, and tracking down the
right FAQ is not as simple as most people would like.  So how about a
linux answer server?

        Basically, have someone or some group of people monitor the
comp.os.linux groups, compiling authoritative answers to questions as
they come, and entering them into a gopher/www accessible database.
Then all readers can access the database before posting.

        Now, the first objection is, "Why is this different from a
FAQ?"  There is so many FAQs and HOWTOs, and they are all so large,
that for a newbie to track down a question is a large task, and even
experienced people may want to bother.  But if all the FAQ answers and
HOWTO subjects were organized into such a database, then Joe User
could log into the server and query about, say, "mtools",
"adaptec|scsi", "PPP" or whatever, and get all the pertinent
information for browsing.  No tracking down which FAQ/HOWTO, no
finding the right ftp site, no worrying about which version of the FAQ
it is.

        Another improvement is timeliness.  Networking questions, for
example, usually are relevant to the kernel being used.  Net answers
which are chosen for this database could hopefully also have info on
which patchlevel/release the answer is for, etc., which will be
helpful.

        Three obvious drawbacks suggest themselves, and I'd love to see
discussion on this.  First, there may be some legal type problem with
making someone's post available like that.  Aside from the fact that a
few people treat usenet posts as equivalent to private mail, John
Expert probably wouldn't want 500 people mailing him because his name
got in the database.  I'll let net-lawyers argue this one.

        Secondly, there is the question of correctness.  Just because
something is posted to the net doesn't make it correct!  But by
waiting for multiple confirmation, or testing the answers, the
database compilators could avoid this.  

        Thirdly, this is obviously a heck of a time sink.  As I said,
I am unable to do it -- two part time jobs and 4 classes do bad things
to my time -- but I am posting this because maybe people will see
merit in the idea, and maybe someone will volunteer.

        So, I submit this idea for your consideration.  What say you,
folks?

  Greg Owen  { gowen@allegro.cs.tufts.edu, gowen@xis.xerox.com }
 1.01 GCS/GO d++ p+ c++ l++ u++ e+ -m+ s++/- n- h !(f)? g+ -w+ t+ r-- y?
"Put the staff in my hands; for I go to the Fenians, O cleric, to chaunt/
The war-songs that roused them of old; they will rise, making clouds..."

------------------------------


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