Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #830
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Fri, 18 Mar 94 08:13:08 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #830, Volume #1                Fri, 18 Mar 94 08:13:08 EST

Contents:
  Re: BSD vs. Linux (Bill Pechter)
  Re: How big is the Linux community? (Harald T. Alvestrand)
  Re: Sparc vs. 486/Pentium [WAS:Re: Mail Order Linux Workstation Vendors] (Evan Leibovitch)
  Re: Prepare for DOOM (parody) (Mark A. Davis)
  Re: Happy with Linux V1.0 (Nick Pearson)
  Re: CW Software for Linux (Phillip Hardy)
  Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shirt for $29.
  Re: How big is the Linux community?
  Re: DEC pc's (Vlad Moseanu)
  Re: *** DON'T READ THIS BEFORE POSTING *** (lilo)
  Er ... i need help on read-write sys_calls (DE PRETER MARC)
  Re: LJ arrives! (Bruno Cornec)
  Re: Effective rights in Linux/Unix (Ray Rocker)
  Re: DOOM for X (Mark A. Davis)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.unix.bsd
From: pechter@i4got.lakewood.com (Bill Pechter)
Subject: Re: BSD vs. Linux
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 23:17:43 GMT

In article <2lqdmn$153@pdq.coe.montana.edu>,
Nate Williams <nate@bsd.coe.montana.edu> wrote:
>In article <DHOLLAND.94Mar10205415@husc7.harvard.edu>,
>David Holland <dholland@husc7.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>>iiitac@swan.pyr's message of Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:06:46 GMT said:
>>
>*WRONG*
>
>>NetBSD (and the other 386 BSDs) require more system
>>than Linux does.
>
>*WRONG*
>
>With the current shlib implementation, the system requirements for
>FreeBSD are the same or less as those of Linux.  However, the
>installation process for Linux is such that it's easier to install
>'pieces and parts' of the system as separate units rather than the
>'whole shooting match' that the FreeBSD install does.  This will be
>dealt with in the future, but at this point in time it's not possible
>to install FreeBSD with as little disk space as Linux.  
>
>However, don't confuse install problems with system requirements.

My FreeBSD version 1.02 doesn't have shared libraries.  Is there an
easy way to add them 8-)

I'm sitting here with FreeBSD-1.11-Beta and not enough disk to upgrade
easily.  (I need to load the whole source tree and compile everything -- 
or backup all my local files and reinstall.)

Also, there's no upgrade script on ftp.cdrom.com.

Anyway - FreeBSD is great, stable and quite useable. As is Linux.
I run both.  I used to run Pyramid's OSx -- so both Unix universes
are old friends -- not competing enemies.

Bill
-- 
===============================================================================
 Bill Pechter                  | The postmaster always pings twice.
 Lakewood MicroSystems         | 17 Meredith Drive,
 908-389-3592                  | Tinton Falls, NJ 07724       

------------------------------

From: hta@uninett.no (Harald T. Alvestrand)
Subject: Re: How big is the Linux community?
Date: 17 Mar 1994 08:14:57 GMT

The Linux Counter currently has 5381 registered users.
This is up from 5173 at the beginning of this month, and
up from 4961 on February 8 (the first number I've kept lying around).

I'll include the HELP file at the end of the posting.

I am pretty sure that this is more than 0.1% of the Linux users, and
pretty sure that it is less than 5%, giving an estimate of 107.000 to
5.300.000 Linux users.
My favourite number is 1%, giving 500.000 Linux users total.

The counter also includes a section for registering machines, and more
information about people; so far, 592 machines are included, and
471 persons.

This gives a *tiny* chance of an estimate: Look at what they are running.

Distribution of distribution (554 reported)
==============================
 18   3.2%: debian
 89  16.1%: diy
 14   2.5%: lgx
 21   3.8%: mcc
  1   0.2%: nascent
  6   1.1%: other
241  43.5%: slackware
155  28.0%: sls
  1   0.2%: snow
  6   1.1%: tamu
  2   0.4%: yggdrasil

A total of 16 (lgx + yggdrasil) run the Yggdrasil LGX CDs. Rumour had
it they sold 8000 CDs, as of some months back. This gives a hitrate of
0.2 percent.

Another interesting number (but with fewer people counted, since I
installed the question only some weeks ago) is where people install
Linux from:

Distribution of source (85 reported)
==============================
  1   1.2%: cd/metro
  1   1.2%: cd/morse
  1   1.2%: cd/sls
  1   1.2%: cd/trans-ameritech
  3   3.5%: cd/transameritech
  1   1.2%: cd/yggdrasil
  1   1.2%: debian
  2   2.4%: floppy/friend
  1   1.2%: floppy/linux system labs
  1   1.2%: floppy/linux systems labs
 59  69.4%: ftp
  1   1.2%: ftp (sunsite.unc.edu)
  1   1.2%: ftp floppy/friend
  1   1.2%: ftp/ftp.cdrom.com
 10  11.8%: nfs

You see that 73 out of 85, 85% got it on the 'Net, but distributing CD-ROMs and
floppies is *still* a viable business.
(OK, people totally off-net are *guaranteed* not to register.....)

Other sources:

Cx magazine in Germany had a poll in September '93, from which one could
conclude that there were *at that time* 7.500 Linux users among the
magazine's circulation of some 26.000
The counter currently says:

 9 de Germany                     800     4   804    79.1  10.1

This gives a 10% registration rate, if no more people started
using Linux in the meantime.

But among my findings is also this tiny chart (from PERSON registrations):

How many years they have been using Linux
=========================================
0y 0m:   32   7.0% (probably it takes them 3 months to discover the counter)
0y 3m:  150  33.0%
0y 6m:   65  14.3%
0y 9m:   42   9.3%
1y 0m:   43   9.5%
1y 3m:   53  11.7%
1y 6m:   23   5.1%
1y 9m:   22   4.8%
2y 0m:   20   4.4%
2y 3m:   16   3.5%

My guesstimate is that the Linux population has doubled every 6 months or so.

Well, I'll stop guesstimating, and just include the HELP file.
Have fun with Linux!
-- 
                   Harald Tveit Alvestrand
                Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no
      G=Harald;I=T;S=Alvestrand;O=uninett;P=uninett;C=no
                      +47 73 59 70 94
My son's name is Torbjxrn. The letter between "j" and "r" is o with a slash.
=============================================================================
HELP FOR THE LINUX USAGE COUNTER
================================
This message is intended for you to edit, and send right back to the
Linux-counter@uninett.no address.
DO NOT USE "REPLY"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Practice has shown that putting the counter in the Reply-To: or From:
fields of a message is a GREAT way of causing mail loops, and defending
against them is a *lot* of effort. Therefore, this counter does not do it)

There are two ways of registering: Simple and complex.
For the SIMPLE method, simply send a message with the subject line being
one of:

   I use Linux at home
   I use Linux at work
   I use Linux at school
   I do not use Linux

You can also do combinations, like "I use Linux at home and at work".
The counter will attempt to guess your country of origin, and count you
accordingly. Information about you will not be made public.

Complex registration
====================
The complex features of the counter are accessed by using commands.
A command looks like (for instance) //MACHINE, and starts in the left
column.

You can register MACHINES, FRIENDS and data about YOURSELF (PERSON).
Below is listed an example of each of the sections, with comments that
aid you in filling them out correctly.

Only use the FRIENDS section if it is unlikely that the people will
register themselves!

When the templates are accepted by the daemon, they will be added to the
database. Data will be added even if it is not parsed properly.
They may be thrown out in later duplicate elimination, or you may receive
a query from me regarding the validity of the data, but otherwise, they will
be counted.

You can get a report from the counter by specifying the command

  //REPORT <reportname>

The following reports are available:

  short    - The standard listing of Linux usage, including per-country data
  machines - Statistics on registered Linux machines
  persons  - Persons who use Linux, sorted by country, and some statistics

The counter also understands //HELP.
When you use a command, the subject line of the message is *not* recorded
in the counter.

Good luck!

             Harald Tveit Alvestrand


//FRIEND
# Your Linux-using friends, in the pattern
# E-mail address: place of usage
# For people without E-mail address, use
# ?Givenname.Surname@geographical.area.country
# like ?Joe.Smith@london.gb or ?bill.gates@newyork.ny.us


//MACHINE
# Fill in one such section per machine that runs Linux
accounts:
# Number of accounts in /etc/passwd, not counting root and so on
country:
# ISO 3166 two-letter country code
cpu:
# The pattern is MakerNumberBus/Speed, for example
# Cx386, amd486, 386DX/33, 586SX/16
disk:
# Number of MBytes of disk installed - number only
distribution:
# Slackware, SLS, LGX, TAMU, MCC, Debian,
OTHER or DIY (do-it-yourself) with optional version number
memory:
# Number of MBytes of memory installed - number only
name:
# DNS or UUCP name of machine if it has one
# If no unique network name is available, use ?machinename@geo.area.country
network:
# Type of network - SLIP, Ethernet, Term, PPP, AX.25 or none
source:
# Where you fetch Linux. FTP, BBS, Floppy/Friend, Floppy/<Company>,
# CD/Yggdrasil, CD/Morse, CD/Snow....
# NFS, AFS
users:
# Number of persons who use this machine regularly


//PERSON
# This is about yourself, the sender of this message
country:
# ISO 3166 two-letter country code of where you live
may-publish:
# YES if you agree that information about you can be published
# If not given, nothing but statistical information will be published
name:
# Your name
started:
# Month and year you started using Linux, like "nov 93"
usage:
# The place where you use Linux. Home, school, work or combinations of these


//END
The END command is only required if you have a mailer that adds stuff
below the last line of the message.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.unix.pc-clone.32bit
From: evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch)
Subject: Re: Sparc vs. 486/Pentium [WAS:Re: Mail Order Linux Workstation Vendors]
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 04:49:00 GMT

In article <9403140708.01@rmkhome.com> rmk@rmkhome.com (Rick Kelly) writes:

>We have 450 to 500 people on site.
>We are running INN with 3000+ newsgroups.  Feed is by NNTP.  We also feed
>some news out by NNTP to one of our European offices, with more to come.
>Mail also goes through this system.
>There are often 20 users connected to the system with xrn/nntp, and two
>other systems running nnmaster point at this machine.

>It is a robust, reliable system that chugs along 7 days a week, 24 hours
>a day.

>I don't feel that Intel PC hardware would be reliable enough to do the
>job in this case.

Upon what is this conclusion based?

-- 
 Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (905) 452-0504
"We're just not good committee people. Some of us don't have that long to live"

------------------------------

From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis)
Subject: Re: Prepare for DOOM (parody)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 16:20:46 GMT

newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu (Dan Newcombe) writes:

>In article <CMqEEq.BL3@ucdavis.edu> slouken@pennington.cs.ucdavis.edu (Whitstler) writes:
>>:       Well, it looks like the Doom port to linux (and quite a few
>>: other Unix's also) is well on it's way. So I thought I'd just get you ready
>>: for it by saying to prepare for at least 100+ articles with such exciting
>>: titles as:
>>        Help!  I can't stop playing DOOM!

>Ah, what the heck.  It is a .misc group.

>How about:  Can I run Linux Doom under windows?

Indeed, that is the whole point- running under Unix and Xwindows.....
or were you refering to the product named MS-Windows?
-- 
  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
  | Mark A. Davis    | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 |
  | Sys.Administrator|  Computer Services   | mark@taylor.wyvern.com   .uucp |
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------

From: nick%ruly46.leidenuniv.nl (Nick Pearson)
Subject: Re: Happy with Linux V1.0
Date: 17 Mar 1994 15:40:21 GMT

I'm happy with Linux-1.0 as well. It seems to be running fine on top of 
my Slackware 1.1.2.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get dosemu-0.50 running yet. Oh 
well, I'll get the latest libs and recompile tonight...

Nick

------------------------------

From: phillip@mserve.kiwi.gen.nz (Phillip Hardy)
Subject: Re: CW Software for Linux
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 00:54:35 GMT

Benjie Chen (benjie@hh.sbay.org) wrote:
: Are there any good CW software (like SuperMorse) out there for linux?  

: All information are welcome.


can anyone email me also.

thanks
Phill.
-- 
phillip@mserve.kiwi.gen.nz  (Phillip W. Hardy)
phillip@iconz.co.nz / phillip@kiwi.gen.nz
We use Linux cos a 486 is a horible thing to waste. 
Linux 0.99pl14a - LGX Fall '93 Base 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:17:05 EST
From: <3JJN3@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shirt for $29.

Re : Response in 24 Hrs.

I knew some one is going to post this but, I talked to christina and
she got over 1000 E-Mails in 24 Hrs. So you have to wait few more
24 Hrs. :^)


Jay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:40:35 EST
From: <3JJN3@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: How big is the Linux community?

How big is the Linux community. Well there was this post for 3 CD set
and a T-Shirt on c.o.l.announce for 29.95 for the first 500 custermers.
Guss what...the user ID orders@jana.com passed the 500 mark in about
5 hourse from the post time. So there is a BIG Linux base out there.

Jay

PS : The 29.95 price will be given to all orders recived until this Friday.
If you want info on this please E-Mail christina@jana.com and not me please.

------------------------------

From: vlad@vlad.iso.dec.com (Vlad Moseanu)
Subject: Re: DEC pc's
Date: 17 Mar 1994 15:48:02 GMT
Reply-To: vlad@vlad.iso.dec.com


In article <1994Mar15.171124.7602@inca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>, millar@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk (Matthew C Millar) writes:
|>Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
|>Path: decuk.uvo.dec.com!janix.pcs.dec.com!ryn.mro.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decuac.dec.com!haven.umd.edu!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!hookup!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!comlab.ox.ac.uk!millar
|>From: millar@teaching.physics.ox.ac.uk (Matthew C Millar)
|>Subject: DEC pc's
|>Message-ID: <1994Mar15.171124.7602@inca.comlab.ox.ac.uk>
|>Organization: Oxford Physics Teaching Course
|>Date: Tue, 15 Mar 94 19:11:24 IST
|>Lines: 7
|>
|>
|>Can anyone comment on using DEC PC's with Linux?
|>-- 
|>/\/\att /\/\illar            uv94002@ox.ac.uk
|>
|>"Everybody wants a rock to wind a piece of string around"
|>                              - They Might be Giants, 'We Want a Rock, Flood'
|>

Which one ?

- DECpc LP/MT/MTE/LPv : No problem.

You may need more VRAM(1MB) for the S3 graphics/video adapter, the default is 
512KB - see XFree86 2.0. The S3 server in XFree86 2.1, announced on March 15,
is supposed to work even with 512KB at lower resolution.

I own myself a DECpc LP.

- DECpc LPx

Choose the the S3 805 or S3 928 video adapters. The P9000(Diamond Viper) is
not supported by XFree86.

- DECpc XL

For the graphics/video adatper see the above, take the S3 928.

The XLs are PCI platforms with integrated SCSI-II -- NCR 53C810. The standard
linux kernel has no driver for this chip, but I understand that there is one
under development. Check first the status of the driver.


---
Vlad Moseanu                  | 
Digital Israel IMT/FCM        | Internet: vlad@vlad.iso.dec.com
Digital Equipment Corporation | Voice: +972 9593405
Note: Opinions Expressed are my own and not those of my employer
---

------------------------------

From: lilo@myhost.subdomain.domain (lilo)
Subject: Re: *** DON'T READ THIS BEFORE POSTING ***
Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:39:56 GMT

On 14 Mar 1994 12:49:08 GMT, Ron Smits (ron@draconia.hacktic.nl) wrote:

. 
. 
. 
> At  the moment many  people who are totally  unknown to Unix/Linux and
> the net are switching over to Linux and are getting access by either a
> provider  like hacktic in the Netherlands  or because the company they
> work  for starts to  provide  it.  These people  usually  don't have a
> faintest  clue where to start  looking  for FAQ's,  Readme's or  local
> help...These people need to be assisted to have _*fun*_ with Linux, and
> scaring them away  when their first posting is  answered  by some rude
> flame or a form letter from some automated moderator stating that they
> have   been a bad   boy:) is  a   sure way  of  killing  the more then
> expontential growth of Linux....

So true!  Comments like this are a breath of fresh air.  I'm surprised at
the number of Linux hackers who seem to resent the possibility that newbies
will start using Linux--and seem to be willing to be as rude as necessary to
prevent this unfortunate occurrence from happening.... ;)

> I don't  mind answering  questions  here on  the net   and I  have the
> feeling that their are  a lot of people   that don't mind  reading and
> answering  questions. I  think that   the people  who  are so terribly
> concerning about the flood of questions from newbies and get irritated
> about it  should  think about  not reading the  col.help and  col.misc
> group. Maybe a new group should br created for them where they can sit
> back and relax   not being disturbed  by the  numerous and re-occuring
> questions of newbies...

Maybe we should simply set up a few moderated counterparts to the existing
groups, and let people choose which to use.  This would be unfortunate in
that many of the complainers *do* answer newbie questions....but often
discourteously (and they certainly have the right to have their own forum if
that's what they want).

> I have  stated  it  before  in other   postings the  last weeks,  keep
> col.help the way it is, keep answering questions  from newbies and not
> so newbies, and keep  reminding them in an  easy, friendly and polite!
> manner of the existance of FAQ's, Readme's and HOWTO's. 

Why not?  I've answered questions in this fashion for an hour at a time on
IRC, and all it has gained me is the undying gratitude of newbies, who
often go on to be some of Linux' best, and most knowledgeable,
supporters.... ;)


lilo

------------------------------

From: mdepretr@vub.ac.be (DE PRETER MARC)
Subject: Er ... i need help on read-write sys_calls
Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:33:41 GMT

Well, i need to study a piece of the kernel code : i have to compare
the read-write sys calls in the linux with those of a real SVR5
(i know, Linux is a real SVR5, but i mean another version)

So, if anybody has documentations (SOURCES, and others, ..), it would be
really nice to send it to me (btw, Bach's book hasn't the write sys call)
No matter if those docs are in french or in english, or C!!!!!

You're welcome in my mail box :)

Hello from Belgium !!!!!

------------------------------

From: cornec@stna.dgac.fr (Bruno Cornec)
Subject: Re: LJ arrives!
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:26:44 GMT

Yes it also arrives today for me !
Could only say a bit more on it after I read it -:)

--
Bruno Cornec    E-mail : cornec@stna7.stna.dgac.fr    Phone : (33 1) 60 79 82 28
Services Techniques de la Navigation Aerienne
95, Rue Henri Rochefort                          91000 Evry  - FRANCE

------------------------------

From: rocker@rock.b11.ingr.com (Ray Rocker)
Subject: Re: Effective rights in Linux/Unix
Date: 17 Mar 1994 17:58:12 GMT

In article <CMqE5B.B9L@ucdavis.edu>, ez005403@othello.ucdavis.edu (Michael Legg) writes:
|> I know that there is a way to run a file and inherrit the 
|> rights associated with the file, but I can not seem to find exactly how 
|> to do it.  For instance I want to create a shell that is owned by root 
|> and lets any user become root when it is run because it gives them the 
|> effective uid of root. 

You're thinking of the setuid and setgid bits. If you do a "chmod +s <file>"
you set the setuid and setgid bits, meaning that your effective uid and gid
become those of the file's owner and group when you execute the file.

So, you can make a copy of the shell, chown it to root, then (as root) do
the chmod +s, and anyone who executes that shell becomes root.

Of course, that's a security hole about the size of the Grand Canyon.
I suggest you find the "sudo" or "dwim" programs, these also provide 
quick root privileges without entering the root password, but are a 
little more careful about it.

-- ray

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.386bsd.apps
From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis)
Subject: Re: DOOM for X
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:27:57 GMT

borsburn@mcs.kent.edu (Bret Orsburn) writes:

>In article <2m0h7a$3ck@u.cc.utah.edu> terry@cs.weber.edu (Terry Lambert) writes:
>>
>>(3)   The client/server distinctions are fictional; I have a lab
>>      full of NCR X terminals (now an AT&T X terminals I guess)
>>      that support developement and download of clients to run in
>>      the terminal (server) address space.  Thinking about it a
>>      minute should convince you that this is the only way to do a
>>      window manager, and an enlightened programmer would probably
>>      implement an RPC mechanism for widget drawing the same way
>>      so that look-n-feel(tm) would rely on which window manager
>>      got downloaded.
>>

>But if you think about it for two minutes instead of one, you might
>conclude otherwise.

>Whatever else it may be, a window manager is an application program.

Yes

>An application program needs an application run-time environment, and
>for an X application that environment is probably going to be UNIX.

Not really.  Most Xterminals are not running Unix, which is far overkill...

>So, to provide a general solution for local clients, your X Terminal
>has to provide a UNIX application run-time environment (including all
>of the application libraries your local clients might need).

Nope.  But the mini OS in the Xterminal does have to support certain
functionality- most of which is necessary to run the Xserver software anyway.

>That ratchets your system design a large notch closer to being a workstation.

Actually, yes.  But evey then, there is still a large, large gap between
the two.  Besides, it is unusual to see more than a few local clients
available for Xterminals; such as the window managers, telnet, setup, PPP,
stuff like that.

>(In fact, the only thing that distinguishes this design from a workstation
>is the compromises you make to a "real" UNIX environment to save costs.
>Those are the same compromises that all of those enlightened programmers
>are going to come back and tell you about later.)
>You may just have designed away the cost/performance advantage you had
>by building an X terminal instead of a workstation.

Not really, unless carried to extremes (which I have not seen before).
The vast majority of any Xterminal's clients are going to be running on the
host.  And since the Xterminal's OS requires no maintenance, no upkeep, and
there is still no local media to worry about, backup, update, the maintenance
savings (which can be HUGE) over workstations is still quite valid.  

>And, just to make things interesting, you just designed an open system
>instead of a closed system. I hope you're prepared to go into the programming
>support business.

Granted, it is only logical to even attempt to run a local client on an
Xterminal if:

1) It does not require storage
2) It does not consume large amounts of resources locally
3) It can still be remotely configured and upgraded
4) It is very tied to the Xserver in some way (like the window manager)
5) It produces benefits which outweigh the efforts and side effects
-- 
  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
  | Mark A. Davis    | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 |
  | Sys.Administrator|  Computer Services   | mark@taylor.wyvern.com   .uucp |
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------


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