Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #860
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Thu, 24 Mar 94 07:13:07 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #860, Volume #1                Thu, 24 Mar 94 07:13:07 EST

Contents:
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux automagic mailer (Harald T. Alvestrand)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Johan Myreen)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Matt Welsh)
  Re: Emergency!! **Infinite loop in boot** (Bao Chau Ha)
  Re: DOOM for X (Mark A. Davis)
  Re: Wine status March 11, 1994 (Mark A. Davis)
  Re: SoftPC/Linux? (Ulf Bartelt)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Thomas Koenig)
  Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a.... (Jerome Kaidor)
  Word processor for Linux??? (Gregory E Gelles)
  Re: pronunciation of linux (Bennett Todd)
  Re: Opinions wanted about SCO-unix (vs AIX/Linux). (Kai Petzke)
  Re: Are r/o partitions safe agains damages? (Bill Hogan)
  Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shi (Kai Petzke)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Remy CARD)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Remy CARD)
  Comp.os.linux.advocacy RFD lost? (Harald T. Alvestrand)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: hta@uninett.no (Harald T. Alvestrand)
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux automagic mailer
Date: 22 Mar 1994 20:22:18 GMT

(subject line fixed up by hand)
Actually, I tend to think this debate belongs in c.o.l.misc.....

Ian, if I were you, I would try out the idea on the group in which
the margin was largest. (I'm sorry this was not .help - I always feel
pity for all those questions that have *no* reaction. Even an automailer
giving the location of the FAQs would be better than nothing.)

Then, after the flames had died down, you could think about it again,
and perhaps try it on another group. Or stop it.

This network is unmoderated, all ways, so nobody can "legally" stop you.
Just - if you try it on .misc, I want the keywords [FLAME] and [COUNTER];
one to kill, another to watch....
-- 
                   Harald Tveit Alvestrand
                Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no
      G=Harald;I=T;S=Alvestrand;O=uninett;P=uninett;C=no
                      +47 73 59 70 94
My son's name is Torbjxrn. The letter between "j" and "r" is o with a slash.
  Register with the Linux Counter! Email to linux-counter@uninett.no!

------------------------------

From: jem@snakemail.hut.fi (Johan Myreen)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: 24 Mar 1994 07:03:35 GMT


Look how much noise the automonitoring proposal has generated already
in this newsgroup. And the keyword enforcement hasn't even started
yet!

-- 
Johan Myrien
jem@cs.hut.fi
600 11' 55" N, 240 53' 30" E

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 06:21:59 GMT

In article <2mofje$ptu@hermes.acs.ryerson.ca> jeff@ee.ryerson.ca (Donald Jeff Dionne) writes:
>Who gives him the right to discourage others?  It's one thing to ignore
>the people who refuse to read the FAQ's, but there are those that are
>in the know that will ask stupid questions from time to time.  

Ian's proposal isn't going to stop ANYONE from posting ANYTHING. Please
re-read the proposal.

>Bad news.  Perhaps I would re-think the thing if I were him.  Linus 
>intended this to be for everyone, and this is very contrary to that.

But you see, right now, the newsgroups aren't helping ANYONE. 

Let's put it this way. Say that Linus, for some reason, were to include
each and every patch into the kernel, regardless of whether it worked, 
whether it did anything useful, whether it broke other code, or whatever. 
You mailed him a kernel patch, and he included it, and that was that. 
Then, the Linux kernel really would be for everyone, wouldn't it? That
would be great, right?

Wrong. It would be seriously and hideously broken. Nobody would be able to
use the system at all. Instead, Linus does filter out these things, and 
tries to ensure that not only will new features work, but that also they'll 
be useful to enough people to warrant inclusion in the kernel. And, much
of the time, people don't get their patches in the standard kernel. 
Maybe it's not entirely "fair", but it works.

This is a lot like the problem at hand, the problem with the newsgroups.
While you folks are getting all huffed about Ian's "right" to make this
proposal, a lot of people are getting seriously frustrated because of the
lack of effectiveness of the c.o.l.* hierarchy. I don't think that a 
week passes without someone proposing some kind of newsgroup split or
other means to fix this broken system. 

The point of the poll was to see if the bulk of the c.o.l.* readership
considered his proposal to be favourable. The bulk of the readership
did (and if you didn't vote, you have nobody to blame but yourself). It
was made quite clear that this proposal would go through if this vote
gave a favourable response, and it did. 

I would stop worrying about Ian's "right" to monitor the group, and start
worrying about how ineffective the newsgroups are, and how to fix it.
Most people seem to agree that Ian's proposal is a good one, and it
doesn't "moderate" the group (as everyone seems to think it will). In the
end, it should make the groups much more useful to those who need the help
the most. I don't see why you're opposed to that. Is it really too much
to ask that people include an approved keyword in the subject line?

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: habaoch@eng.auburn.edu (Bao Chau Ha)
Subject: Re: Emergency!! **Infinite loop in boot**
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 14:58:44 GMT

In article <gabeCn3DBM.GAt@netcom.com> gabe@netcom.com (Popovisk Steion) writes:
>I tried to patch the .99.14 kernel to get .99.15, a few things
>went wrong, but eventually it said "done."  However, my /vmlinuz was gone
>(null file).  So, I copy vmlinuz.bak back to /vmlinuz.  When I boot
>(off a floppy), it reads the floppy for a sec (normal), tehn it goes
>to the hard drive and says "LILO Loading linux..." and it keeps on saying
>that forever, scrolling down the screen.
>
>** Any way that I can save my work and finally boot Linux? **

Have you reran lilo so that lilo knows how to load the new /vmlinuz?

Bao

------------------------------

From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis)
Subject: Re: DOOM for X
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 02:31:19 GMT

hasty@netcom.com (Amancio Hasty Jr) writes:

>In article <1994Mar21.144650.11760@taylor.wyvern.com> mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis) writes:
>>borsburn@mcs.kent.edu (Bret Orsburn) writes:

>>>If X terminals aren't cheaper than workstations, the motivation for using
>>>them becomes *very* weak.
>>
>>They ARE cheaper than "workstations", first in the hardware cost, but as
>>I just said above, companies typically will spend at least the cost of the
>>hardware in maintenance and support services for workstations (or clones)
>>each year.  Xterminals have a huge advantage in this area.

>Well you can have PC **color** workstations which are cheaper and faster
>than most or all X-terminals. For less than $3000 you can have 
>a PC workstation with a Sony 17" capable of 1600x1200. 

And loose most **ALL** the advantages which Xterminals would provide because
workstations need local program support, local media, and local OS and software 
configuration, etc, etc, etc. It is NOT your imagination that the Xterminal 
market is soaring and still growing, it is reality- based on a real solution to
real needs which can be plucked from a shelf and put on a person's desk and used
in minutes.

>       Mark, How is you linux system coming along :)

Just fine..... Slackware is REALLY slick.... BTW- I have it running on my
brand new Gateway 2000 handbook!!  It's unreal!

-- 
  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
  | Mark A. Davis    | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 |
  | Sys.Administrator|  Computer Services   | mark@taylor.wyvern.com   .uucp |
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.i386unix
From: mark@taylor.wyvern.com (Mark A. Davis)
Subject: Re: Wine status March 11, 1994
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 02:38:57 GMT

chuckr@glue.umd.edu (Charles B. Robey) writes:

>Warner Losh (imp@boulder.parcplace.com) wrote:
>: In article <2mfun0$j4d@universe.digex.net> philp@universe.digex.net
>: (Phil Perucci) writes: 
>: >I understand the Win32 API (one of it's incarnations) will be sort of
>: >an industry standard, at least on Microsoft and Unix platforms. 

>: The Win32 API is not a standard on Unix.  OSF/Motif is the standard
>: API for C programmers on Unix.  I don't think that OSF will go quietly
>: into that good night, now that they are the de facto standard API.

>Oh, for pete's sake.  Motif is just one standard among many.  It's not
>the anything. 

But Motif really IS the Unix GUI standard for X!  If nothing else, by
de-facto....

> If they wanted it to be the real standard, they'd have
>made it public.

I have to agree with you on that matter, completely.

> What about non-X?

What about it :)    I have used or seen VERY little graphical applications
for Unix which were not based on X!
-- 
  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
  | Mark A. Davis    | Lake Taylor Hospital | Norfolk, VA (804)-461-5001x431 |
  | Sys.Administrator|  Computer Services   | mark@taylor.wyvern.com   .uucp |
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------

From: stub@pce60.rz.tu-clausthal.de (Ulf Bartelt)
Subject: Re: SoftPC/Linux?
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 05:28:15 GMT

Byron A Jeff (byron@cc.gatech.edu) wrote:
: 1) It already exist (DOSEMU 0.50) 
...
: 3) All PC based Linux boxes have the potential to run DOS directly.

I use DOS *only* via DOSEMU !
There's no DOS-Partition on my machines any more...

Sure, DOSEMU is somewhat slower, but booting DOS would waste too much
of my ressources since I use 2 Linux boxes at home and each machine
has it's special tasks (one for the general work, one for the modem).

But maybe I'll get a real DOS machine integrated the next days...
I just FTPed a shareware NFS-client for DOS and if it runs ok, DOS gets
a little reservation via NFS...

btw: anyone knows a SLIP-NFS solution to link my ATARI-ST into my little
net ?

--
Ulf Bartelt | 2:2437/120.666@fidonet.org | stub@zaphod.in.tu-clausthal.de
            |                            | stub@linux.rz.tu-clausthal.de

------------------------------

From: ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: 24 Mar 1994 08:32:34 GMT

[Followup-To: news.groups]

John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386) wrote in article <1994Mar24.024139.4834@rpp386>:

>USENET has a set of rules which predate LINUX and the zillions of people
>who post to the LINUX groups.  None of the rules mention "straw polls"
>or provide for the concept of a net.fascist to come along and change the
>moderation status of newgroups.

Well, yes; straw polls aren't explicitly mentioned in the creation
guidelines.

However, they've been around for a long time, and they have helped
settle many issues below the RfD/CfV level, like group naming and
details of charters.  They are tested, and they work.

And just how it can be fascist to go around and ask other people's
opinion, I'm not too sure.
--
Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.

------------------------------

From: jkaidor@synoptics.com (Jerome Kaidor)
Subject: Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a....
Reply-To: jkaidor@synoptics.com
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 1994 20:19:05 GMT


   I wonder if the disks have been mastered yet?  What do we get?
Did Slackware 1.2.0 make it?

                          - Jerry Kaidor ( jkaidor@synoptics.com )



------------------------------

From: gelles@bittersweet.crayola.cse.psu.edu (Gregory E Gelles)
Subject: Word processor for Linux???
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 06:06:34 GMT


I have just been introduced to a line of commercial
products for the SUN that I found quite impressive.
This package is put out by Island Graphics or so.
I was wondering if anyone knows of anything like this
that might be available for Linux.  
I have heard the teh Andrew package has a word
processor, but I have no way of seeing this before
I would install the whole package, and I can't 
free up that much disk space on a bad venture.

Any help, or recomendation on a word processor
would be greatly appreciated,

Greg Gelles


"I didn't have to study to fail that one."
                             -anonymous

------------------------------

From: bet@std.sbi.com (Bennett Todd)
Subject: Re: pronunciation of linux
Date: 23 Mar 1994 02:20:21 GMT

In article <2mfdce$s9o@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>,
Hal N. Brooks <hal@pollux.cs.uga.edu> wrote:
>All of this reminds me of the humorous comment by Niklaus Wirth that
>Americans use call-by-value, and Europeans use call-by-name, when
>pronouncing his surname.  That is, Americans tend to pronounce his
>name "worth," rather than "verth."


All this reminds me of the line ``Whereas Europeans favour call-by-name,
Niklaus Wirth, Americans tend to favor call-by-value, Nickles Worth''.
Actually, that isn't quite right. Anybody have the precise line, and better
still a source for it?

-Bennett
bet@sbi.com

------------------------------

From: wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Kai Petzke)
Crossposted-To: comp.unix.advocacy,biz.sco.general
Subject: Re: Opinions wanted about SCO-unix (vs AIX/Linux).
Date: 24 Mar 94 10:19:46 GMT

fitz@wang.com (Tom Fitzgerald) writes:

>My comment deserves more explanation.....  the original poster was
>comparing Linux to two commercial OSs (SCO and AIX), and vaguely implied
>that the choice would which one to use in a business environment.  Both SCO
>and AIX have commercial support available.  Regardless of the technical
>flaws in IBM products, their support is outstanding - in a class of its own
>compared to most of the computer industry.  Linux is unsupported; you can
>hope for help from the net, but you can't get anyone to commit to
>supporting it.

Why?  Why can't you get anyone to support your Linux box?
Any Linux hacker around you can give support.  And if you
are willing to pay money, I am certain you will get a few
good responses, if you put an ad for this in a local
newspaper!

Everybody can give support for Linux, and because sources
are free, everybody experienced with programming can give
*very* *good* *support*.

This is not true for any of the commercial OS's.

>In a business environment support is critical.  If
>something dies and part of your operations grinds to a halt, that's a
>really really bad time to have bring in a logic analyzer to work out a
>subtle misinteraction between the disk and ethernet drivers.

If your hardware fails, it doesn't matter, which software you
were running.
-- 
Kai Petzke <wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de>
Advertisement by Microsoft in a well-known German magazine:
        If you don't like our programmes, then make your own ones.
However, they expect you to use Microsoft products for this -:)

------------------------------

From: bhogan@crl.com (Bill Hogan)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin
Subject: Re: Are r/o partitions safe agains damages?
Date: 24 Mar 1994 02:25:23 -0800

Michael MNUK (mmnuk@risc.uni-linz.ac.at) wrote:

: I'm running Linux on a 486DX2-66 8M, 16M swap. Using a combination
: X-windows/Emacs/gcc I brought the system to a collaps. During the
                                                         ~~~~~~~~~~
: following boot e2fsck was run in 'automatic' mode and a message about
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: erroneous block numbers (or so) in the file crond was printed on the
: screen. While correcting this the binary of crond was destroyed (can't
: be executed any more). 

: I wonder whether it would help to mount the root partition r/o and
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: leave it in this state to prevent such damages to the filesystem. Is
  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: it possible at all in Linux to have a partition where not a single bit is
: allowed to change (I would like my root partition to stay unchanged no
: matter what happens to the system).

Michal,

  Exactly what is the best way to minimize the amount of operating-system 
code that is exposed to being clobbered?

  I think that is an excellent question.

  I also think your experience makes the wisdom of allowing bootup scripts
to run fsck in "just fix it no matter what" mode a little bit
questionable. 

  In case you are interested, on my system (Slackware 1.1.1) the deed is
done in a short shell script named /etc/rc.d/rc.S, as follows: 

 # Test to see if the root partition is read-only, like it ought to be.
READWRITE=no
if echo -n >> Testing_filesystem_status; then
 rm -f Testing_filesystem_status
 READWRITE=yes
fi

# Check the integrity of all filesystems
if [ ! $READWRITE = yes ]; then
 /sbin/fsck -A -a <---------------------------------------- right here!
 # If there was a failure, drop into single-user mode.
 if [ $? -gt 0 ] ; then
  echo Fsck failed.  Please reboot.
  sh
 fi
 
  According to 'man fsck', the "-A" option means cycle through all the file
systems listed in /etc/fstab and the "-a" option means don't ask the user,
just do it. 

  I don't do things this way and the fact that I don't has nothing to do
with Linux per se; it is to me just a matter of common sense. 
  
  And I am *not* implying that you could have recovered from the situation
you were in had the "-a" option been replaced by "-r" (ask-the-user) -- we
will never know that now. 

  But I prefer to protect things as much as possible.

  I would prefer to have all my operating systems stored on read-only media 
-- like CD-ROM!

 Bill

        "We build better than we know." [Shulman, paraphrasing Emerson]
-- 
  Bill Hogan
{bhogan@crl.com}

------------------------------

From: wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de (Kai Petzke)
Subject: Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shi
Date: 24 Mar 94 10:46:04 GMT

dant@minerva.rolm.com (Dan Tran) writes:

>> Can anyone explain how it costs $14.95 to ship 3 cd's?  It's not like there
>> is any heavy documentation.  Maybe it's a *really really* thick t-shirt?

>> --bob

>I agree, the 3 cd + t-shirt + box < 2 pounds.  2-day priority mail costs only
>$2.90.

>-Dan

Haven't you read the announce?  You can keep the T-shirt, even if
you don't want the CD's, but you have to pay the $14.95 shipping
in either case.

They are simply the price for the shipping and the shirt.


Kai
-- 
Kai Petzke <wpp@marie.physik.tu-berlin.de>
Advertisement by Microsoft in a well-known German magazine:
        If you don't like our programmes, then make your own ones.
However, they expect you to use Microsoft products for this -:)

------------------------------

From: card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: 24 Mar 1994 10:55:57 GMT

In article <dgardnerCn55Ln.F2J@netcom.com>,
Dave Gardner <dgardner@netcom.com> wrote:
] Suggestion: Let's all just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
] 
] True, Ian didn't have to even go by a vote (straw or otherwise) to start
] sending out email under this plan.  What he does with his email is his own
] business.  I don't see it as fascism; I just see it as an utter waste of
] time (and bandwidth) in an attempt to control the uncontrollable, and 
] possibly a side effect of stifling new users with many questions.

        It's also a waste of money for some people.  Remember that some
people pay for receiving their mails (and it may be very expensive for
some) and sending unsollicited mail to them is not a good idea IMO.

                Remy

------------------------------

From: card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: 24 Mar 1994 10:58:52 GMT

In article <JEM.94Mar24090335@delta.hut.fi>,
Johan Myreen <jem@snakemail.hut.fi> wrote:
] 
] Look how much noise the automonitoring proposal has generated already
] in this newsgroup. And the keyword enforcement hasn't even started
] yet!

        Maybe, we should set up a monitoring program which scans the newsgroups
(and some mailing lists) for posts from Ian Jackson and send him a mail telling
"Warning - you may start a new flame war" :-)))

                Remy

P.S:    This is just a joke :-)

------------------------------

From: hta@uninett.no (Harald T. Alvestrand)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Comp.os.linux.advocacy RFD lost?
Date: 24 Mar 1994 10:12:15 GMT

Hello,
I notice that the comp.os.linux.advocacy proposal is missing from the
March 22 listing of currently running RFDs.
(The comp.os.linux.all moderation proposal IS listed......)

Perhaps it was lost in the automoderation flamewar?

I still think it's a good idea, so I would like the proposer to reissue
the RFD, or write a formal CFV, or whatever the guidelines call for.
Anybody out there?

-- 
                   Harald Tveit Alvestrand
                Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no
      G=Harald;I=T;S=Alvestrand;O=uninett;P=uninett;C=no
                      +47 73 59 70 94
My son's name is Torbjxrn. The letter between "j" and "r" is o with a slash.

------------------------------


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