Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #882
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sun, 27 Mar 94 14:13:07 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #882, Volume #1                Sun, 27 Mar 94 14:13:07 EST

Contents:
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Thomas Koenig)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: Accounting in Linux 1.0...* (Kristopher Kortright)
  Re: Pentium Optimized GCC (Clint Olsen)
  Re: Wine status March 11, 1994 (james r grinter)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: 3 CD jana offer-- Int (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li (Rick Emerson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 17:47:28 GMT

In article <1994Mar26.083142.13080@cs.cornell.edu>,
Matt Welsh <mdw@cs.cornell.edu> wrote:
>In article <1994Mar26.071620.7022@cc.gatech.edu> byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes:
>>Well I've finally figured out that the pro/con people on this subject are
>>arguing apples and gorillas:
>>
>>pro - it's easy! it's helpful! it's simple! Why can't we get along?
>>con - it's invasive! it's restrictive! it's junk mail! it violates my
>>      rights! I have no choice! Mess with my newsgroup and I pull out my 
>>      AK47! 
>
>Pretty good summary, yes. Anybody who can boil such a lenghty thread 
>down to under 50 words deserves some credit. :)

Thanks,

>
>>Just for a minute stop dealing with how helpful the idea is and deal with
>>the actual impact of each and every user that posts into that newsgroup
>>forevermore. 
>
>I have been thinking about it, and I just don't see how difficult it
>is to add a keyword to the subject line. It's much more difficult to
>figure out how to post to USENET in the first place. 

It's not difficult. It's not even a bad thing. It is in fact quite logical.
But honestly I'm dealing with people and their reactions. Which usually
are quite illogical.

>
>>It creates an imposition, it has consequences to posting,
>>and most importantly it relieves the poster of the right they originally
>>had: the right to post however they wanted without repercussions. 
>
>Do they have that right? What if someone were to post recipes for
>spinach soufflee? Besides adding it to their cookbooks, a number of 
>users might ("rightfully") flame the pants off of them for doing so.
>So, my question is this: How far do a poster's "rights" (if the word
>is applicable) extend? 

The situation you described in within their rights. The flames are
also appropriate. 

An example of overstepping was the guy who posted "Jesus is coming" to
785 comp newsgroups. It was clearly overstepped because he used a program
to do it. A bit more fuzzy if he'd typed it in 785 time!

>
>I don't want to take away anyone's "right" to post anything. Under Ian's
>proposal, someone is just as "free" to post recipes for spinach soufflee
>provided that they mask it with an appropriate keyword. 

You've taken away the right for someone to post freely in an unmoderated
newsgroup. If keywords were necessary they would be in the charter of
the group or enforced by the posting software. Since neither are the case
you're taking away a right we already have. That's where the conflict
begins. A lot of peoples perception is that something is being taken away.
Whether it is or not is not the issue.

>
>So, I don't think that this is what you're getting at. What you're
>getting at has nothing to do with your right to post what you want, 
>(unless you really consider a subject-line convention a breach of
>freedom) but it has to do with your right not to get mail from Ian if you 
>do it "incorrectly". That's the only valid argument I can see here. Unless 
>you *really* consider freedom of subject lines to be a cause worth battling
>to the death, I think that what most everyone is really complaining about
>is the potential of getting mail from Ian. If mail from Ian weren't 
>involved here I doubt anyone would bother complaining about this. Right?

Nope. Actually I would welcome mail from Ian's auto-mailer if it's clear that
when I post to a group that the consequence of posting is getting that mail.
The only point I'm arguing is that whatever you do, don't do it in an
existing newsgroup. Nothing more, nothing less.

My underlaying belief is that the keywords won't help one whit without
enforcement. I personally then there needs to be stronger controls. I think
that posts that don't fit the guidelines should be rejected. I want the
state to take control. I want fascism. But I want it in another newsgroup
where that fascism is specifically chartered. Then I can choose to post
there. This clearly points to a new moderated group. Which I admit Ian
proposed initially. The problem was that he wanted to start moderating the
existing groups. He ran into that same perception that something is being
taken away.

Simple put: leave the current groups alone. Create new groups to implement
any new policy you like. Let the poster's choose.

>
>>So please please please consider my proposal: one (and for now only one)
>>new moderated newsgroup with all the restrictions you wish. 
>
>I say start with a mailing list and see if it works (on an acceptible
>scale; of course a mailing list would be utilized much less than a
>newsgroup that appeared next to c.o.l.h.) The problem with a newsgroup
>is permanance. If it doesn't work out, it's harder to get rid of. People
>are still posting in comp.os.linux (alt.os.linux, even). 

That's due to bad technology, not bad policy. But the need is clear. 
I believe that the newsgroup we'd have a problem deleting later on
is comp.os.linux.help.

>
>At any rate, with such a system I could set up software to automatically
>digest questions and replies by keyword, and post a weekly "response
>summary" of some kind, which could be archived and WAIS-searchable. I get
>excited just thinking about it.

Now you've got the right idea. I was thinking that we could put the info
necessary to post either in WWW or maybe even a custom finger daemon that
will give you the info you seek. The objective of what really needs to be
done is three-fold

- Get information out to people without having them post.
- Provide a forum where non FAQ question/issues can be discussed
- Keep noise out of that forum.

I have a structure for doing exactly these three things. In fact I sent Matt
a copy. I'm waiting on his comments before I make it public. I will send
copies to anyone who request. BTW the restrictions I have makes Ian's
look like a pussy cat in comparison. So if you're against restrictions
for any reason, don't ask for a copy. I guarantee you won't like it.

>
>>Ian had the right idea initially: moderate the questions. Impose structure.
>>The only mistake was to impose it on a currently unmoderated group. 
>
>True, but I think that whether or not Ian's proposal is a breach of
>dismoderation is still in question. If you say so, all right. I don't know
>either way.
>

I'm not talking legality, I'm talking perception. Whether it's legal or not
for Ian to do what he's proposing is moot. He can. He could have without
asking us. In fact there's some bozo named Otto out there that sending
junk E-mail now. The only question is how will people perceive it. Usually
when an idea doesn't have any lukewarm responses, it has problems. And with
this one everyone seems to be gravitating to the poles. My RFD for a new
group is the same way. We'll need to talk about it.

"CyberSpace is infinite. Cut out your own niche!"

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: ig25@fg30.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
Crossposted-To: news.groups
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: 27 Mar 1994 17:23:34 GMT

Byron A Jeff (byron@cc.gatech.edu) wrote in article <1994Mar27.171805.14263@cc.gatech.edu>:
>A moderated newsgroup whose
>charter included the restrictions would pass without comment.

Hmm... ok.  Do I hear you volunteer as moderator?
--
Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double
logarithmic diagram.

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 18:12:06 GMT

In article <2mnr7g$r9d@renux.frmug.fr.net>,
Rene COUGNENC <cougnenc@hsc.fr.net> wrote:
>Ce brave Kenneth Herron ecrit:
>
>> I think Mr. Jackson's mistake was in letting people get the idea he 
>> needed their permission.
>
>Can someone translate proprely this french sentence into English... ?:
>
>       "La liberte des uns commence la ou s'arrete celle des autres".

I'm a rusty, crusty American with 5 years of French over 10 years ago, but
I'll take a stab at it:

Our liberties end where they stop (affect?) those of others.

"CyberSpace is Infinite. Cut out your own niche! - me"

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: miax@35.8.25.23   (Kristopher Kortright)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.admin,comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: Accounting in Linux 1.0...*
Date: 27 Mar 1994 18:16:05 GMT

Gabriel Grigorescu (gabe@po.EECS.Berkeley.EDU) wrote:
: I finally installed linux 1.0 (I had .99 before) with most of the 
: packages (disk series).  Anyway, I got the acct-alpha-3.tar.gz file
: from sunsite.unc.edu and followed the instructions (or at least I tried
: because there are two different ones, INSTALL and README-LINUX files).
: After simply nulling my kernel, it did not do anything.  It puked
: on lastcomm.c.  So, patching the kernel did not work, and neither did
: the compilation.

  Start with fresh kernel source, unpack it into /usr/src/linux and then
  attempt the patch by using: patch -p1 < /<wherever your acct package is>
  It may fail on a few files, I know Quota 1.3 and 1.31 always pukes on 
  my fs.h file, and I have to patch it manually. If something is rejected
  in your patch, it will create a <file>.rej file.  Read this, print it 
  out, and patch the necessary files by hand.  In most cases, this just 
  involves replacing a few lines of text and your done. Then follow the
  README file in the /usr/src/linux dir as to howto compile your kernel.
  If it still failes, I suggest contacting the writer of the Acct and Quota
  packages for further assitance, his email is in the Acct documentation.

: Can anyone please give me a clue as to how to get accounting running?
: I'm using Linux primarily for slip and I've got about over 10 users...

: Thank you very much.

: Grigorescu

        Kristopher

------------------------------

From: olsenc@maxwell.ee.washington.edu (Clint Olsen)
Subject: Re: Pentium Optimized GCC
Date: 27 Mar 1994 18:26:39 GMT

In article <1994Mar26.154705.14294@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu>,
 <jwest@jwest.ecen.okstate.edu> wrote:
>In article <2n0lsm$afu@galaxy.ucr.edu> grif@corsa.ucr.edu (Michael Griffith) writes:
>>In article <1994Mar25.181332.4419@news.clarkson.edu>,
>>Homer the Humble <legauljm@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>   anonymous@aurora.intel.com:/pub/intel_arch/gnu/compiler/    (143.185.65.2)
>
>I have read several places that a side-effect of Pentium optimized 
>compilers under DOS/Windows is that they produce code that also runs 
>significantly faster on a 486. Does anyone know if this is also true of
>the Pentium-optimized GCC? Or did the GCC developers already know better 
>than the DOS type compiler-writers how to take advantage of the 486 in
>the first place?
>
>(And before anyone flames me for saying that the whole premise is 
>ridiculous, it has apparently been flamed to death in other groups 
>already so there is no reason to re-start it here.)

Yes, Watcomm (sp?) made this claim about their compilers I believe.
No flames :)

-Clint
--
Clint Olsen
University of Washington
Electrical Engineering
olsenc@maxwell.ee.washington.edu

------------------------------

From: jrg@blodwen.demon.co.uk (james r grinter)
Crossposted-To: comp.windows.x.i386unix,comp.os.386bsd.apps
Subject: Re: Wine status March 11, 1994
Date: 25 Mar 1994 03:41:09 GMT

In article <newcombe.22.000D9C0F@aa.csc.peachnet.edu> newcombe@aa.csc.peachnet.edu (Dan Newcombe) writes:
   WordPerfect has a version for X, I'm surprised that MicroSloth hasn't
   followed suit, as it's seems like it'd be a good place to compete.  Or

There is, however, the programs from Astrix (is that right?) that look
remarkably like Word and Excel. I believe that they're only currently
available on Suns - but they do look good. Does anyone have any more
info or experience of them?

   is Bill Gates so concerned with making everything have the MicroJunk
   API???

Motif's look and feel was heavily influenced by HP and Microsoft
anyway. I'm sure he doesn't object to that.

james.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
MD> Message-ID: <1994Mar23.194650.10527@cs.cornell.edu>
MD> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc,news.groups
MD> From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
MD> Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
MD> 
MD> In article <2mpm9r$et5@bmerha64.bnr.ca> mlord@bnr.ca (Mark Lord) writes:
MD> >In article <1994Mar23.062159.28638@cs.cornell.edu> mdw@cs.cornell.edu wr
MD> >..
MD> >>Ian's proposal isn't going to stop ANYONE from posting ANYTHING. Please
MD> >>re-read the proposal.
MD> >
MD> >Sure it is.  It is going to waste incredible email bandwidth, 
MD> 
MD> How is that going to stop anyone from posting? I'm afraid that you 
MD> misunderstand how the news software works.

And so, I think, do you.  Under the proposed scheme, I could define a
crontab job to mail trash to the group and a twit filter to kill off
the automatic "don't do that" messages.  Automatic moderation or no,
the list would fill with noise.  

More importantly, if I were to repeatedly trash the group, I'd hear
from other readers and so would my POSTMASTER address.  As the
operator of a few lists, I know mail dealing with problem users
usually produces results.  And that's how the groups work without
automatic intervention.

MD> >>But you see, right now, the newsgroups aren't helping ANYONE. 
MD> >
MD> >Really?  I suggest you do a little more research before making such
MD> >broad mis-assumptions as that.  
MD> 
MD> My point is that if we adopted a simple subject-line convention, the
MD> overhead for implementation is MINIMAL, and it increases the overall
MD> quality of the group dramatically. Wouldn't it be nice if we could
MD> increase the effectiveness of c.o.l.h by 300% just through this simple
MD> mechanism?

Well, clearly the daily "read this before posting" messages have made
a dramatic difference in the signal to noise ratio on c.o.l.x and
since they worked so well, adding even more messages will make this a
perfect group.  Hardly!

MD> Apparently you'd rather preserve the complete openness of the group, and
MD> have it turn into a perpetual trashbin, where very few people get help.
MD> That's what I can't understand. 

Ah, now this is the crux of the matter.  Lots of people post lots of
messages but few people get answers.  Why is that?  Will sending
"please don't send this message again" going to fix their problems?
Will that encourage them to use Linux?  The answer is "no" to both
questions.

MD> >You could even get a preview of what
MD> >Ian would be in for if he failed to reconsider his scheme:  just post
MD> >a visible request for a reply from "ANYONE" who has ever been helped
MD> >by the newsgroups..  
MD> 
MD> All right, why don't I also post a request for ANYONE who posted and
MD> was not subsequently helped? I can get upwards of 100 mails a week from 
MD> people who have tried asking questions on c.o.l.* but never got a reasona
MD> response. So they turn to e-mail. Perhaps I should start soliciting mails
MD> from people who aren't getting help, archive them all, and send them
MD> to you. Would that be enough proof? 

But people resort to e-mail because their questions go unaswered.  I
*still* don't have an answer to questions about WorkMan and xcdplayer,
for example.  Telling me my question somehow violates a standard for
posting sure doesn't fix my problem or keep me interested in
furthering Linux.

MD> >>Let's put it this way. Say that Linus, for some reason, were to include
MD> >>each and every patch into the kernel, regardless of whether it worked, 
MD> >...
MD> >Linus' kernel coordination is more analogous to a central newsserver,
MD> >which collects articles into appropriate newsgroups, ordering them and
MD> >assigning local article numbers, threads, etc..
MD> 
MD> And rejecting certain articles based on content? Wrong. Newsservers
MD> don't do that.

The proposed scheme will effectively do just that.  If someone posts
something that's inappropriate, they'll receive negative mail from the
moderator system.  It may not be a total rejection (i.e., bounced
mail) but it's a step along the way.

MD> All of this talk about proposals, and nothing's being done to resolve the
MD> problem. We should have known better than to ask for input on the Net. 
MD> Nothing ever gets fixed that way. Ian should go forth with the proposal
MD> based on the results of a poll. Flame all you want; that's never going to
MD> fix anything.
MD> 

Who are you or Ian Jackson to say "only doing 'x' will save the
groups?"  The concern over the excess noise is admirable and I don't
question it for a moment.  Where I do draw the line is *anyone's*
presumption that they have the right to impose their will on the
groups without the groups' permission.  That, quite bluntly, is
tyranny.

Richard B. Emerson
  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * How dieth the wise man? As the fool.


------------------------------

Subject: Re: 3 CD jana offer-- Int
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: 3 CD jana offer-- Interesting feedback                  N
CA> Message-ID: <cavenewtCn5rxE.1Fv@netcom.com>
CA> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc
CA> From: cavenewt@netcom.com (James F Small Jr)
CA> Organization: Mad Scientist Applications International Corporation
CA> 
CA> 
CA> When I pressed them whether my number meant that was my 'order' in line, 
CA> they sent me a new even higher number without explanation
CA> 

<laugh> They probably took your inquiry as another order.  Six CD's
and two T-shirts are all yours!

Rick
  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * They are slaves who fear to speak for the fallen & weak.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
IG> Message-ID: <2mrj72$ril@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
IG> Newsgroup: news.groups,comp.os.linux.misc
IG> From: ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
IG> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
IG> 
IG> [Followup-To: news.groups]
IG> 
IG> John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386) wrote in article <1994Mar24.024139.4834@rpp
IG> 
IG> >USENET has a set of rules which predate LINUX and the zillions of people
IG> >who post to the LINUX groups.  None of the rules mention "straw polls"
IG> >or provide for the concept of a net.fascist to come along and change the
IG> >moderation status of newgroups.
IG> 
IG> Well, yes; straw polls aren't explicitly mentioned in the creation
IG> guidelines.
IG> 
IG> However, they've been around for a long time, and they have helped
IG> settle many issues below the RfD/CfV level, like group naming and
IG> details of charters.  They are tested, and they work.
IG> 
IG> And just how it can be fascist to go around and ask other people's
IG> opinion, I'm not too sure.

A straw poll is a sampling of opinion.  It is not a binding vote.  The
problem is the poll results (which appear to be skewed by
non-responses from people who didn't want to spend time on a
non-binding matter) are being taken as a "mandate" for the action
under discussion.  This mandate (a charged word, in my opinion) may or
may not be confirmed in a binding vote but that cannot be assumed.

Richard B. Emerson
  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * Only the hand that erases can write the true thing.


------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
CA> Message-ID: <2mrrpc$5pi@vishnu.jussieu.fr>
CA> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc,news.groups
CA> From: card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD)
CA> Organization: Laboratoire MASI - Universite Pierre et Marie Curie - Paris
CA> France
CA> 
CA> In article <JEM.94Mar24090335@delta.hut.fi>,
CA> Johan Myreen <jem@snakemail.hut.fi> wrote:
CA> ] 
CA> ] Look how much noise the automonitoring proposal has generated already
CA> ] in this newsgroup. And the keyword enforcement hasn't even started
CA> ] yet!
CA> 
CA>  Maybe, we should set up a monitoring program which scans the newsgroups
CA> (and some mailing lists) for posts from Ian Jackson and send him a mail t
CA> "Warning - you may start a new flame war" :-)))
CA> 
CA>   Remy
CA> 
CA> P.S: This is just a joke :-)
CA> 

Some people have already considered your joke.  Seriously...

Rick  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * A person slow to anger is better than the mighty.


------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
JS> 
JS> If the original posts follow to subject keyword convention, it shouldn't
JS> affect you one bit. What's the problem? Are you going to modify the
JS> subject and take out the keywords?
JS> 

I've seen different mailers truncate and otherwise modify subject
headers.  I'm saddled with a QWK mailer for now and it occasionally
barfs on its shoes, producing odd subjects, for example.  For the
folks whose mailers modify subjects, this means even more "warnings."
Not Good.

Rick  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * That was then, this is now.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 14:47:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
MD> Message-ID: <1994Mar23.193730.9909@cs.cornell.edu>
MD> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc,news.groups
MD> From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
MD> Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
MD> 
MD> In article <2mplni$eoc@bmerha64.bnr.ca> mlord@bnr.ca (Mark Lord) writes:
MD> >In article <1994Mar23.023351.18346@cs.cornell.edu> mdw@cs.cornell.edu wr
MD> >..
MD> >>I'm more than willing to sacrifice the complete OPENNESS of these newsg
MD> >
MD> >That's Nice.  I'm happy that *you* have an idea you like.
MD> >What about the other 20,000 people in this group?
MD> 
MD> I don't know. Look at the results of the poll. Most people were in favour
MD> it. If you'd like perhaps we could have a "real" vote, which I would expe
MD> would turn out to have roughly the same results. 

I disagree with your conclusion.  A poll is just that, a sampling of
opinion, and not a vote where the results are binding.  All the poll
says is more respondents to a poll said yes than said no.  As
subsequent posts here have shown, some people passed on replying
because they had other things to do than wade through a poll form.

MD> >>Ian isn't talking about moderating the group---he's talking about enfor
MD> >
MD> >He's talking about a massive waste of bandwidth, that will result in an 
MD> >more massive reverse-flow of flames.  Very stupid.
MD> 
MD> What's a "massive waste of bandwidth"? Please explain yourself.

Sending mail where it's neither required or needed seems to be a
pretty fair definition.

MD> >If Ian wants a moderated newsgroup, he knows the procedures for trying
MD> >to create one.  This particular group is *unmoderated*.
MD> 
MD> You are not listening. Ian is NOT proposing to moderate ANYTHING. He
MD> is talking about sending e-mail asking people to use a certain convention
MD> for subject lines. I don't know how you can equate that with moderation;
MD> being a moderator I should know that they are nothing alike.

But the proposed scheme *does* impose moderation; step out of the
program's guidelines and you'll receive a message pointing out the
error of your ways.  It may not be moderation in the sense of a mail
list or some groups, but it's more pressure than exists on most
groups.

Richard B. Emerson


   
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * Dollars cannot buy yesterday.


------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 16:35:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
JR> Message-ID: <JRG.94Mar24202006@blodwen.demon.co.uk>
JR> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc,news.groups
JR> From: jrg@blodwen.demon.co.uk (james r grinter)
JR> Organization: BCHFT&UI, London
JR> 
JR> In article <2mrrjt$5p7@vishnu.jussieu.fr> card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD) wr
JR>    It's also a waste of money for some people.  Remember that some
JR>    people pay for receiving their mails (and it may be very expensive for
JR>    some) and sending unsollicited mail to them is not a good idea IMO.
JR> 
JR> How much does the receipt of -one- email cost people? It's not like
JR> they're going to make 20 posts to a newsgroup in one day, is it? They
JR> might as well ditch the newsgroup subscription too if they're paying
JR> by volume.
JR> 
JR> james.

Well, how much does the VAT add to any one purchase?  It's not really
that much is it?  QED

Rick
  
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * They are slaves who fear to speak for the fallen & weak.

------------------------------

Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Li
From: rick.emerson@dscmail.com (Rick Emerson)
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 94 16:36:00 -0640

 @SUBJECT:Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring          N
MD> Message-ID: <1994Mar24.230933.6177@cs.cornell.edu>
MD> Newsgroup: comp.os.linux.misc,news.groups
MD> From: mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh)
MD> Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
MD> 
MD> In article <2mrrjt$5p7@vishnu.jussieu.fr> card@masi.ibp.fr (Remy CARD) wr
MD> > It's also a waste of money for some people.  Remember that some
MD> >people pay for receiving their mails (and it may be very expensive for
MD> >some) and sending unsollicited mail to them is not a good idea IMO.
MD> 
MD> True, but possibly irrelevant. Those same people are theoretically 
MD> paying to post USENET articles, and therefore should be willing to "do 
MD> their part" to maintain the convention. They're already costing many,
MD> many people much more money to propagate the article.
MD> 

So now you'll effectively fine some posters for posting
inappropriately??

Maybe I should bill *you* for the time it takes me to delete your mail
form the list because it doesn't meet my standards?  That's what
you're doing to anyone who doesn't meet the automatic moderator's
standards; fining them by sending mail (they have to pay to transfer)
*only* because a post triggered a mailing from the automatic
moderator.

I must say that your post quoted above does a very good job of
pointing out the absurdity of trying to resolve the noise problem with
an automatic moderator.

Richard B. Emerson   
...
 * ATP/Linux 1.42 * "Oh, for a pin that would puncture pretension!" -- I. Asimo



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