Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #883
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Sun, 27 Mar 94 17:13:14 EST

Linux-Misc Digest #883, Volume #1                Sun, 27 Mar 94 17:13:14 EST

Contents:
  Re: The Keyword Debate Continues (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: The Keyword Debate Continues (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: Slackware 1.2.0/Linux 1.0 Problems (Patrick J. Volkerding)
  Re: 3 CD jana offer-- Why would you guys deal w/ that ? (Bogdan Urma)
  3-cdrom offer (Donald Likes)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring (DAVID L. JOHNSON)
  Slackware 1.1.2 weird tex behaviour - kernel problem? (Paul Nulsen)
  Re: Stupid... Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shirt for $29.
  linux and dos6 (Mark J. Crosland)
  Re: libc 4.5.24??? (Byron Thomas Faber)
  Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
  Re: SCSI Magneto-Optical Drive Supported? (Vincent Gillet)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: The Keyword Debate Continues
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:07:08 GMT

In article <RLJ.94Mar24120917@albion.rx.xerox.com>,
Richard L. Jones <RJones.wgc1@rx.xerox.com> wrote:
>My two pence worth:
>
>If it is possible for a particular set of keywords can be agreed on
>- say [INSTALL], [ADVOCACY], [DISTRIB], etc. etc., then surely it would
>be a better idea instead for appropriate newsgroups to be created (.install,
>.advocacy, .distrib, .distrib.slackware, etc.) ?
>
>'Newbies' would know at a glance where to post their enquiries, and there
>would be no need for mailed 'reminders'. 
>
>Am I wrong in thinking that more newsgroups are required ? 
>
>Please feel free to debate, rather than 'flame'.

I have two keywords for you: admin, development. Never really served their
intended purpose.

We need less traffic, More newsgroups, more control, Less noise, more choice.

less traffic - People are lazy. People are ignorant (not knowledgable, no
negative connotation implied). The post because they don't have the 
information or because they're too lazy to open another window to search
for the answer. Posting is easy. It's cheap. We need to make it less
cheap. Ian's ideas are a step in the right direction. However there
has to be...

More newsgroups - Not one for every topic under the sun. But the traffic
we do have needs to be spread better. But we've learned from the last time
that just creating groups is not the answer. We need....

More control - moderation is the way to go. Not human moderators, but the
kind of program based moderators that Ian's been talking about. Not just
notification, but enforcement. Content is too difficult to examine in the
general case. However structure is not. Subject Keywords, documentation
passwords, Limited response, etc. are all possibile to do. Reject with Email
containing more info if necessary. All of these things lead to....

Less noise - filter out the FAQ's, multiple same responses, "GOD on Linux",
and what do you have? A streamlined, concise, discussion of the current
issues and the real problems. But it can't be all restrictions and no fun
so in addition we must have...

More choice - Put out that advocacy group so folks can flame away. Have
general purpose unmoderated groups like misc so that folks can freely
talk about whatever they please. When the discussion becomes serious
then create a moderated group for it. If a topic is consistently out there
and generates mucho traffic create a new unmoderated group for folks to
yak away. If there needs to be both, create both.

Linux is both fun and work for me. I need newsgroups that allow me to express
both. So split the newsgroups into serious newsgroups and fun newsgroups.
Have control and structure on the serious newsrgroups while keeping the
fun newsgroups freeform. Notice no one is asking for keywords on misc?

The only other thing is that the unmoderated groups should be very general
while the moderated groups should be very specific. We should also make
the distinction very clear: if you want to yak - go to an unmoderated group.
If you have something pressing and serious, do your legwork, then post to
a moderated newsgroup (comp.os.linux.mod.help for example). Since
it has little general traffic and noise, someone will quickly point out
the right way. 

So in my system I'd create immediately a moderated admin, development, and
help group. I'd personally ditch comp.os.linux.help (unmoderated) but in
keeping with my choice guideline it would need to stay. I think it's a bad
idea because any time someone asks a question, it most like has serious
intent. So leave it, it'll go unused once it's clearly seen that the
moderated newsgroups for answering questions are far superior.


Anyway that's what I think.

"CyberSpace is infinite. Cut out your own niche! - me "

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: The Keyword Debate Continues
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:38:02 GMT

In article <DMARPLES.94Mar24184025@voyager.eee.strath.ac.uk>,
David Marples <dmarples@voyager.eee.strath.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>I don't know a great deal about the machinations of the 'net, but it
>seems to me that the reason that a lot of people post to the groups is
>because it's the *only* place that they can get information.  The
>FAQs, HOWTOs etc. etc. are great, but there is no way that they can
>ever contain all of the information that people want, and that assumes
>that they know where to find them and that they are still up to date.

True. But I think we need to actively pursure making published documents
like this more available. My problem is the tons of question that are
clearly documented in the FAQ, HOWTO's etc. where people didn't know
or didn't take the time to get the information.

>
>I'm wondering if one of the things that could be done is to start more
>'local' support groups; e.g. uk.linux.* or even strath.linux.* etc.
>etc.  For many of the questions that crop up regularly (core/mice/cd
>config/installation etc. etc.) which would free up the 'international'
>groups for real new/difficult subjects.  Its then a matter of user
>education to encourage people to use the more localised groups, where
>they are more likely to get a fast answer due to there being less
>traffic etc. If its in the users interest then it will happen.

Well that might help a bit. I think we need to distiguish between serious 
and fluft newsgroups. serious newsgroups need more control and less interaction
whereas the fluft groups are freeform.

>
>I don't know if such a scheme is workable in practice, but it seems to
>me to be a much better option than putting another block in the path
>of newbies, making them conform to some list of keywords, or whatever
>other system you would like to propose.  WE WERE ALL NEWBIES ONCE (I
>stll feel like I am).

True enough. With newbies we need to get more of the information in their
hands. A friend of mine just got a linux box on his desk about 2 weeks
ago. He now has the I&GS, Printing-HOWTO, Networking Guide, and latest
FAQ. He's amazed at the amount of documentation available. Unfortunately
folks are not aware of these docs or ignore them. I know that Slackware
1.2.0 has all the HOWTO's in the distribution.

>
>Just one more point of view - I'm a bit concerned about making these
>groups even a little bit less accessible, 'cos that is the real power
>of the net (IMHO).

I think we need to differentiate between the talk groups and the help/serious
groups. The latter needs a bump in it so that you'll examine the relavent
documentation first before just firing off the newsgroups. I know for a newbie
that their question is the most pressing thing in the world. But honestly
99 percent of newbie questions have documented answers. The bump in the road
will make them go find out how linux documentation is organized.

So I think we add more groups some moderated, some not. Offline we need
WWW and maybe finger access to documentation. If you want an example
of how effective a finger server can be check out the andrew demo. 

========================== Included text =============================
    HOW TO USE THE SERVICE

    To use the Remote Andrew Demo service, run the following command
    on your machine:

    finger help@atk.itc.cmu.edu
                    
    The service will give you any further instructions that may be
    necessary.
=============================================== End included text ======

Runs applications to your X screen. Excellent idea. So who not have
a finger linux-help@sunsite.unc.edu and get an interactive browser. Or
use a Mosaic home page, ftpmail, or some other such mechanism. If we could
advertise this as a first line, it would drop a lot of load from the serious
groups.

"CyberSpace is infinite. Cut out your own niche!"

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: gonzo@magnet.mednet.net (Patrick J. Volkerding)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
Subject: Re: Slackware 1.2.0/Linux 1.0 Problems
Date: 27 Mar 1994 19:49:08 GMT

In article <Mar27.063702.46478@acs.ucalgary.ca>,
Superuser <root@fusion.cuc.ab.ca> wrote:
>bau1@cornell.edu (Bogdan Urma) writes:
>> >"Mr. Unix" writes,
>> >5- The color 'ls' is just too slow for me, even if you turn off the color..
>> >   first order of business was to replace the 'ls' binary with the old
>> >   monochrome-only 'ls'.  Besides, "real" Unix types hate color.
>>
>>  What do you mean by slow? Do you read while it scrolls?
>
>type 'ls' in a large directory, /usr/bin for instance, it takes much
>longer before the file list starts with the color 'ls' than with the
>old monochrome 'ls'.

I guess I'm not a "real" Unix type. ;^)

Anyway, you clearly didn't do any benchmarking. While it does run 
significantly slower in color mode (but that hasn't been too slow for 
me), when you turn off color in /etc/DIR_COLORS (or a copy in 
$HOME/.dir_colors) it runs about the same speed as a monochrome binary.  
If you don't want color, I think it's best to create a 
$HOME/.dir_colors. That way, each user on the machine can 
decide for themselves.

Here are a couple of tests done in /usr/bin on my 386-40.

Color ls based on GNU fileutils-3.9:
0.24user 1.33system 0:01.57elapsed

Color ls based on GNU fileutils-3.9 (color turned off in /etc/DIR_COLORS):
0.14user 0.17system 0:00.32elapsed

Old monochrome GNU fileutils-3.8.4f ls:
0.08user 0.22system 0:00.31elapsed

I find it's not too annoying to wait that extra 1.26 seconds (in the worst 
case scenario). I usually pipe the listing in a directory as large as 
/usr/bin through 'less' anyway.

---
Patrick Volkerding
volkerdi@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu

------------------------------

From: bau1@cornell.edu (Bogdan Urma)
Subject: Re: 3 CD jana offer-- Why would you guys deal w/ that ?
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 1994 22:50:04

  These JANA messages are becoming classic. Maybe we should start a new 
newsgroup (of course NOT monitored!) called,
 
           comp.os.linux.CD's.T-shirts and promises.jana

  I myself got a reply with a number in the 3000's and thinking that I would 
have to pay $20 more, I sent back a message saying to CANCEL my order. The 
next day of course I got another message with a new order number. I'm now 
afraid to send any other messages to them so I'll wait and see what 
happens. When and if people receive their products, another set of posts 
will begin, and I can only wait and see what funny stuff they'll contain!

Bogdan Urma  (OH NO!! I forgot key-words and the like! Please do not throw 
              me off the newsgroup!) 

------------------------------

From: likes@osuunx.ucc.okstate.edu (Donald Likes)
Subject: 3-cdrom offer
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 1994 22:04:30 GMT


Does anybody know if slackware 1.2.0 made it on the offer from
jana.


Thanks.

Craig.

------------------------------

From: dlj0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DAVID L. JOHNSON)
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 02:29:41 GMT

In article <Cn7E4I.5xx@psu.edu>, cgschott@psu.edu (Carl Schott) writes:
>Matt Welsh (mdw@cs.cornell.edu) wrote:
>
some more deleted

>[...stuff deleted...]

>Every one of Ian's attempts to control the postings to these
>groups has resulted in flamewars and hostility--from his early drafts
>of the daily post to his public flaming of posters in c.o.l.d that led
>to the facetious CFD on eliminating the groups.  This crusade for 
>politically correct posting has already done far more harm to the 
>groups than good--through increased flame traffic and fostering an 
>atmosphere of hostility toward newcomers.
>
When will this get through?

>What you're proposing to do now is send e-mail criticizing posts to 
>virtually every newcomer to these groups.  In itself, that will be a 
>lot of mail traffic, and if even a small fraction of those people 
>take offense, 

And the whole effort to develop linux will suffer.

>Everyone in favor of this seems to be completely overlooking the
>intangible effects this campaign has had on the groups.  I don't
>mind the people asking FAQ's nearly as much as the flamewars over 
>the appropriateness of posts, and found the pre-split comp.os.linux
>more enjoyable to read because of its openness than the present groups.

I try to answer these FAQ's when I can.  It's a form of payback, not a 
drudgery.  If you don't want to, and your newreader can handle it (mine
can't) just kill anything that is beneath you to answer.  don't poison the
well with this.
-- 

David L. Johnson                             ID:  dlj0@lehigh.edu
Department of Mathematics
Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA 18015       Telephone: 610-758-3759 (office)
                                                        610-828-3708 (home)
MS-DOS: Just say No!

------------------------------

From: pejn@wumpus.cc.uow.edu.au (Paul Nulsen)
Subject: Slackware 1.1.2 weird tex behaviour - kernel problem?
Date: 21 Mar 1994 10:35:26 +1000


I have Slackware 1.1.2 installed on a no name 486DX33 laptop with 8
Mbytes of RAM and (roughly) 16 Mbytes of swap.  The kernel is the one
that came with the distribution (ide only 99.15f I think).

Without X running, the tex that came with the distribution works as
usual.  However, when X is started (XF86 2.0 mono server using the
generic VGA driver with fvwm) tex bombs immediately with a
segmentation fault every time it is run (this applies to virtex and
initex as well).

Initially I thought this was a bug in the tex distribution, but tex
also bombs when I try to run it on a vt where X is not running.  Using
free just before running tex shows that there is no shortage of memory
(only about 300k free, but 3 Mbytes in disk buffers and swap is
untouched - the swap partition does function btw), so I doubt that tex
is running out of memory.  Given this, tex should not (well barely) be
able to tell that X is running on another vt and I am beginning to
wonder if a kernel problem might be involved.

Does anyone know what is going on?  How to cure this?  Can you tell me
whether or not the kernel may be partially at fault here?

Thanks
Paul Nulsen


------------------------------

From: jwest@jwest.ecen.okstate.edu ()
Subject: Re: Stupid... Re: NEW PRODUCT : 3 Linux CD's and a T-Shirt for $29.
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 03:31:34 GMT

In article <2mslliINNlfs@foing.gl.umbc.edu> ian@umbc.edu (Ian Soboroff) writes:
>
>the same thing happened with me... i just replied to
>christina@jana.com telling them please don't mail me two (which i (a)
>don't need and (b) can't afford... ;-) and to delete the second
>reference number.  i'm just hoping that i don't receive yet a third
>reference number....
>

You put a smiley about "can't afford", but just in case you are really
worried...remember that (in the US) if you receive anything in the mail
you  didn't order, all you have to do is write "REFUSED" across the box 
and give it back to the post office. You are in no way obligated to pay 
anything (including return postage).

Jim

________________
Jim West
Associate Professor
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Oklahoma State University
jwest@master.ceat.okstate.edu

------------------------------

From: mjc@coho.halcyon.com (Mark J. Crosland)
Subject: linux and dos6
Date: 26 Mar 1994 01:19:34 GMT


hello,

I have had linux and dos 5 running for quite some time now,
i was wondering what dos 6 with disk compression does to
my currently peaceful co-existence of os's.

i would imagine that linux can't read/write a dos6 compressed
partition, but that it can still read uncompressed dos partition ?

probably not a lot of difference between what dos5 vs dos6
does to partition table ?

thanks,

Mark Crosland

mjc@halcyon.com


--
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mark J. Crosland                                       mjc@halcyon.com
 Seattle, Washington USA


------------------------------

From: bf11620@ehsn3.cen.uiuc.edu (Byron Thomas Faber)
Subject: Re: libc 4.5.24???
Date: 26 Mar 1994 04:39:12 GMT

lilo@slip-12-5.ots.utexas.edu (lilo) writes:

>On Wed, 23 Mar 1994 00:25:32, Bogdan Urma (bogdan@cornell.edu) wrote:

>>      I just(many hours of FTP'ing) got the SLACKWARE 1.2.0 distribution,
>> and 
>> I noticed that it says that it contains libc 4.5.24. However I can't find 
>> this anywhere on sunsite!! Sunsite seems to have 4.5.21! Where did Patrick 
>> Volkerding get these libraries?

>They are H.J. Lu's latest (nominally "testing", but they seem to be very
>solid) release, found in an appropriate, difficult to find directory on
>tsx-11.mit.edu....the new releases and instructions for their acquisition
>are announced on the GCC channel of the Linux Activists mailing list.  When
>they are considered utterly clean, they are posted where people can find
>them without going to any extra effort.... ;)


>lilo

I think including testing software in a release of slackware is a
PPOOOOOOOORRRRR idea.

Somebody dealing with slackware should think a little harder about the
moves their making, and the problems it could cause.

Byron
-- 
PGP 2.3 key available (in plan file) at:        Support public code:
b-faber@uiuc.edu                                Use GNU software and others.
other accts at:  btf57346@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu & bf11620@coewl.cen.uiuc.edu 

------------------------------

Crossposted-To: news.groups
From: jwest@jwest.ecen.okstate.edu ()
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL RESULT: Linux groups automonitoring
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 16:52:17 GMT

In article <1994Mar23.021141.17125@cs.cornell.edu> mdw@cs.cornell.edu (Matt Welsh) writes:
>In article <2mlgft$mkg@hearst.cac.psu.edu>,
>Bernie Thompson <bernie@bjt105.rh.psu.edu> wrote:
>>I am guilty of not paying attention to this straw poll.
>>But clearly if something on a large scale is going to be
>>done, it should have an 'official' vote instead of a
>>straw poll.  I think too many people were ignoring
>>this debate (I was).  (I know, the straw vote did
>>have a large turnout)  
>
>Ian clearly said that he would go ahead with his proposal based on the
>results of the straw poll. If you didn't bother to vote NO to it, then
>he does have mandate to do so.

Sorry Matt. I agree with you on just about everything else but not this
particular statement. The definition of a "straw poll" from my Webster's
New Collegiate Dictionary (actually for "straw vote") is:

"an unofficial vote taken (as at a chance gathering) to indicate the
relative strength of opposing candidates or issues"

The operative word here is "unofficial". If action is going to be taken
based on the outcome of a vote, the term "straw" *cannot* be used in its 
announcement. By using the term (especially in the subject, which is what
people see first), Ian had negated any rights to take action on the 
results. Any comments after that are irrelevant. I had reacted to the
announcement exactly as Bernie had, and didn't realize action was intended
until I saw the "last chance to vote" announcement (it still said "straw
poll" at the time and I was struck by the contradiction).

Jim

________________
Jim West
Associate Professor
Electrical and Computer Engineering
Oklahoma State University
jwest@master.ceat.okstate.edu

------------------------------

From: vincent@malux.UUCP (Vincent Gillet)
Subject: Re: SCSI Magneto-Optical Drive Supported?
Date: 25 Mar 1994 17:42:56 GMT
Reply-To: gillet@renux.frmug.fr.net (Vincent Gillet)

Wolfgang Schelongowski ecrivait :

> >It works on my 1542B exactly as a hard-disk. I can mount this disk as any
> >hard-disk, it means I can put DOS, ext2, .... I only have to mount it
> >correctly.
>  ^^^^^^^^^

> Is there anything special about how to mount it ? Please let us know.

I mean with good file system (msdos for dos, ext2 for extended-2, ....).

Nothing special.

--
0V0

------------------------------


** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **

The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:

    Internet: Linux-Misc-Request@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU

You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.misc) via:

    Internet: Linux-Misc@NEWS-DIGESTS.MIT.EDU

Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
    nic.funet.fi				pub/OS/Linux
    tsx-11.mit.edu				pub/linux
    sunsite.unc.edu				pub/Linux

End of Linux-Misc Digest
******************************
