Subject: Linux-Misc Digest #203
From: Digestifier <Linux-Misc-Request@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Linux-Misc@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU
Date:     Wed, 13 Oct 93 16:13:27 EDT

Linux-Misc Digest #203, Volume #1                Wed, 13 Oct 93 16:13:27 EDT

Contents:
  Re: Linux count: HELP with countries of domains (Heribert Dahms)
  Re: shmget(), etc (Heribert Dahms)
  *** Upcoming removal of comp.os.linux *** (David Barr)
  Re: IMPORTANT: Island Office Package for Linux (Rob Prior)
  Xconfig! (JASON NAUGHTON)
  Ximage port to Linux. (Elie I. Mourad)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Byron A Jeff)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Eric Youngdale)
  Re: emacs 19 DOC file? (Mark Kassab)
  OK, so _where_ are the sources for tin? (Kenneth J. Hoover)
  The expert system idea (was Re: The %&#$@ speaks again ...) (Dan Newcombe)
  >Re: Can't boot Linux (Gareth Bult)
  Re: *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING (Gareth Bult)
  Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology (Dan Newcombe)
  re: Linux Slowly Dying Off (simmonr5387@cobra.uni.edu)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: DAHMS@ifk20.mach.uni-karlsruhe.de (Heribert Dahms)
Subject: Re: Linux count: HELP with countries of domains
Date: 13 Oct 1993 16:12:23 GMT

In <29gte5$ok1@trane.uninett.no> hta@uninett.no writes:

: # The world - use private-use country code
: xw: net int bitnet uucp unknown
:   4 xw dbnrhrz1.bitnet
This one is Germany. I think all bitnet addresses start with a country code,
but I don't have a translation table. E.g. d*.bitnet is in Germany, and
one of our campus mainframes is dkauni2.bitnet and it's *not* running Linux 8-)
BTW, I register as a Linux user in a few weeks when I receive my PC.


Bye, Heribert (dahms@ifk20.mach.uni-karlsruhe.de)

------------------------------

From: DAHMS@ifk20.mach.uni-karlsruhe.de (Heribert Dahms)
Subject: Re: shmget(), etc
Date: 13 Oct 1993 16:14:56 GMT

In <29gruc$bum@samba.oit.unc.edu> cullip@radonc.unc.edu writes:

: I tried to port a program from work (runs on a variety of Unix boxes)
: to my home linux machine and everything worked fine until it got
: to the link stage. The linker said it couldn't find shmget(), shmat(),
: shmdt(), shmctl().
: 
Some of my collegues have used shared memory.
On pl13, you have to make your kernel with IPC support.

:    Tim Cullip
:    cullip@radonc.unc.edu


Bye, Heribert (dahms@ifk20.mach.uni-karlsruhe.de)

------------------------------

From: barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux
Subject: *** Upcoming removal of comp.os.linux ***
Date: 13 Oct 1993 16:30:59 GMT

        Since the comp.os.linux.* groups were created on Aug 12, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups plans to remove comp.os.linux
on November 11.
        Please start using the comp.os.linux.* groups instead:

comp.os.linux.admin     Installing and administering Linux systems.
comp.os.linux.announce  Announcements important to the Linux community. (Moderated)
comp.os.linux.development       Ongoing work on the Linux operating system.
comp.os.linux.help      Questions and advice about Linux.
comp.os.linux.misc      Linux-specific topics not covered by other groups.

        Would anyone object if I made this posting on a weekly basis?

--Dave
-- 
System Administrator, Penn State Population Research Institute
"There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation"
- Pierre Elliott Trudeau

------------------------------

From: robp@unixg.ubc.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Island Office Package for Linux
Date: 13 Oct 1993 16:39:26 GMT


As someone who has used the Island Office programs (on a Sun
Sparcstation), and as a Linux user looking for a better word
processor/drawing editor/paint program/etc, this would be an _ideal_
package to have ported to Linux.  To any of you out there who think they
would like a better wordprocessor for Linux, please please please send
mail to this guy and suport his bid to have a great set of software
packages ported to Linux.

(I relenquish my soapbox... :)


Rob


------------------------------

From: jnaughto@ee.ryerson.ca (JASON NAUGHTON)
Subject: Xconfig!
Date: 13 Oct 1993 16:34:39 GMT

                If anyone has Linux configured with the trident 8900c 1meg 
and they have a Microsoft Busmouse working could you please post your
xconfig.
                Even if you've just got a trident svga 8900c 1meg configured
properly and have a mouse (any mouse) could you post your xconfig. 


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.help
From: elie@netcom.com (Elie I. Mourad)
Subject: Ximage port to Linux.
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 15:39:33 GMT


Would anyone be interested in porting Ximage (scientific visualization
tool) to Linux. ? Source can be found at ftp.ncsa.uiuc.edu.
It runs quite nicely on a Sparc.

Regards, Elie.


------------------------------

Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.development
From: byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 17:17:40 GMT

BTW I'm following up to c.o.l.misc because this discussion doesn't belong
in c.o.l.d.

In article <CEuB7p.7pF@ra.nrl.navy.mil>,
Eric Youngdale <eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil> wrote:
>In article <dnebing-121093210959@m252-67.bgsu.edu> dnebing@andy.bgsu.edu (Dave Nebinger) writes:
>>  Who is to decide when a poster should be flamed or not?  I don't
>>want to start an argument (or get flamed myself), but there are
>>cases where one would say "enough is enough" and flame someone for
>>posting something which was ligitimate to them but dumb to anyone
>>else.
>
>       In my opinion, a poster should never be flamed for asking a stupid
>question, or asking someting in the wrong newsgroup.  Even if they start to
>flame themselves (i.e. they flame other people :-), a polite message asking
>them to take it elsewhere would probably be more effective.  If you have a hard
>time keeping a cool head when composing a response to these sorts of messages,
>then I suggest that you either not respond, or write a polite canned post of
>some kind that you send via email in these situations.  It will not only save
>you time, but your whole day will be more enjoyable, and the rest of us would
>be spared the ensuing flamewar.

Good idea. In fact I've started conducting a survey of why people post 
questions to anywhere but help. I do it by Email. It's in a neutral tone
and doesn't flame. I figure if we can find out why people post to where
they post we may be able to circumvent some of the misdirected questions.

>
>       Frankly, I am a little surprised that people are concerned about the
>bandwidth of c.o.l.d.  There are far fewer messages coming through here than
>there were on c.o.l before the split, and I find it quite easy to skip over the
>postings which I have no interest in.  Note that I do not have time to read any
>of the other c.o.l.* groups any more because of the enormous volume  (I do
>recognize that some people pay money for their newsfeed).

Well the issue is the fact that there is another forum specifically for
these other types of questions. I figure some newbies will always wander
into a group: That's no problem. It's our obligation to help them and to
point them to the correct spot. The problem is that every questions
generates 10 "me too"'s and a non development discussion. The solution
is not to post the answer but to send Email to the person saying they're
in the wrong place and directing them to the right place. Also for the
few that read before they post maybe a weekly posting of the "Welcome"
message might be appropriate.

Incidentally this is true of the admin group also.

>
>       Finally, some people have talked about the size of the FAQ and the
>difficulty in parsing it and so forth.  I guess I am somewhat sympathetic -
>given it's size, it would take quite a bit of paper to print out, and then the
>whole thing would have to be studied to locate the relevant section. I have the
>following suggestion to make:

Well the FAQ has really shrunk due to the HOWTO's (which seem to be regularly
posted to the announce newsgroup). So I don't think size is that much an 
issue.

>
>       Someone could develop a program which can be run interactively that
>will ask questions and take you through a series of menus.  This will in effect
>contain the information in the FAQ, and the FAQ could in fact be used as the
>database for this, but the idea is that there would be a sort of "expert
>system" that would guide you through the thing to the appropriate answers.
>Ideally there would be a way to cross-index different topics that on the
>surface may not seem related (and might be far from each other in the
>information tree), but in fact are relevant to each other.

How about gopher/xmosaic? The hypertext type format would suit this type
of indexing nicely. And the application is already available?

>
>       An info reader could in fact be a prototype for what I am suggesting -
>the information in the FAQ would just need to be rearranged to be used in this
>way, of course, but it is pretty close in principle to what would be needed.
>
>       This program could be set up to run in a captive anonymous telnet on
>some machines, or it could be set up to run on BBS systems.  It could be
>supplied with cdrom distributions, and depending upon the size of the database,
>it could be supplied with some floppy distributions.  It could even be
>downloaded and run on local systems (and even ported to DOS).  If done
>properly, this could become the first line of defense for the new-user types of
>questions.  The users would know that they can get instant, authoritative
>answers 24 hours a day from the expert system instead of waiting for the
>posting (and any subsequent responses) to filter through the various newsfeeds.
>

Excellent idea. Unfortunately I have no time to work on it.

Later,

BAJ
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332   Internet: byron@cc.gatech.edu

------------------------------

From: eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 18:22:26 GMT

In article <1993Oct13.171740.18890@cc.gatech.edu> byron@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes:
>>[me...]
>>      Someone could develop a program which can be run interactively that
>>will ask questions and take you through a series of menus.  This will in effect
>>contain the information in the FAQ, and the FAQ could in fact be used as the
>>database for this, but the idea is that there would be a sort of "expert
>>system" that would guide you through the thing to the appropriate answers.
>>Ideally there would be a way to cross-index different topics that on the
>>surface may not seem related (and might be far from each other in the
>>information tree), but in fact are relevant to each other.
>
>How about gopher/xmosaic? The hypertext type format would suit this type
>of indexing nicely. And the application is already available?

        I am not familiar with gopher/xmosaic - I know that the info system
seems to have the basic capabilities that we require, but it can be a little
tough to get the document formatted correctly.  This is not to say that we must
use it, just that I am not familiar with the other choices.  Something that
would also have an X-based viewer would also be preferable, I think.

        Anyway, if someone wants to take this on, the actual choice of
hypertext viewer could wait until a little later - the first thing to do would
be to come up with a good menu structure.  Ideally we would like to coordinate
with the various authors of the HOWTOs and FAQs so that hopefully we use the
same databases for both things - this would help to prevent out of date
information from being propogated.  It might be possible to break the document
up so that each section is in a separate file or in a separate directory tree -
then the pieces could be put together in different ways depending upon whether
you wanted a hypertext database or a simple HOWTO.  Another possibility would
be to get the HOWTO authors to agree to some simple formatting rules for HOWTO
and FAQ documents so that a program could easily pick them apart and then
re-assemble them into a hypertext database.

-- 
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.  But I have promises to keep,
And lines to code before I sleep, And lines to code before I sleep."

------------------------------

From: mark@macs.ee.mcgill.ca (Mark Kassab)
Subject: Re: emacs 19 DOC file?
Reply-To: mark@macs.ee.mcgill.ca
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 18:14:43 GMT


>>> On 11 Oct 1993 15:17:47 GMT, fox@graphics.cs.nyu.edu (David S. Fox) said:

 David> In article <MARK.93Oct11031433@defiant.ee.mcgill.ca> mark@macs.ee.mcgill.ca (Mark Kassab) writes:

 David> They should be hard linked together.  Are you sure they're not?
 David> If not, it is probably a problem with the build script.

They're not:

mark@defiant:[mark] 17> ls -il /usr/local/gnu/lib/emacs/etc/DOC*
891385 -rw-r--r--  1 local      532600 Sep 29 17:34 /usr/local/gnu/lib/emacs/etc/DOC
891386 -rw-r--r--  1 local      532600 Sep 29 17:26 /usr/local/gnu/lib/emacs/etc/DOC-19.19.14
891387 -rw-r--r--  1 local      532600 Sep 29 17:34 /usr/local/gnu/lib/emacs/etc/DOC-19.19.15

Mark


------------------------------

From: ken@PSUEDVAX.PSU.EDU (Kenneth J. Hoover)
Subject: OK, so _where_ are the sources for tin?
Date: 13 Oct 1993 18:37:05 GMT
Reply-To: ken@PSUEDVAX.PSU.EDU


        I'm trying to get tin running via NNTP on my system.  Of course, it's
telling me to recompile it with -DNNTP_ABLE, but I can't find the sources
anywhere!  Can some kind soul please let me know where the sources for tin are
so I can get moving on this?  Thanks!

        Please email responses.
                                                - Ken Hoover
/signature
-- 
Kenneth J. Hoover                 |  A supercomputer is a device that turns
ITSS Supervisor of Systems & Ops  |  CPU-bound problems into I/O-bound ones.
Penn State College of Education   |  ken@psuedvax.psu.edu -=*=- kjh6@psu.edu

------------------------------

From: dnewcomb@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Dan Newcombe)
Subject: The expert system idea (was Re: The %&#$@ speaks again ...)
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 17:47:25 GMT

ehhchi@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Ed H. Chi) writes:
> >     Someone could develop a program which can be run interactively that
> >will ask questions and take you through a series of menus.  This will in eff
> >contain the information in the FAQ, and the FAQ could in fact be used as the
> >database for this, but the idea is that there would be a sort of "expert
> >system" that would guide you through the thing to the appropriate answers.
> >Ideally there would be a way to cross-index different topics that on the
> >surface may not seem related (and might be far from each other in the
> >information tree), but in fact are relevant to each other.
> 
> Anyone is up to this??   I would be very interested in getting this going.
>  Perhaps using it as my Honors Project for graduation.

This sounds like a good idea.  DO NOT flame me for what I am about to say,
but it should be done, or at least a version on DOS.    Why?  Because most
people that are starting off don't already have linux installed and are
still using DOS and this would be the easiest way for them to use it.

[We could follow the general conventions and require them to install X, GS,
TeX, and Linux just to view a FAQ on how to do the install all those :)    ]

Something in the fashion that the HELP-PC program was done in would be
wonderful.  

                -Dan
  
--
Dan Newcombe         dnewcomb@cybernet.cse.fau.edu      and many others...
"The fool who escaped from paradise will look over his shoulder and cry."
                                -Marillion, "Script for a Jesters Tear"
- Check out Linux - the FREE i386+ 32-bit Unixlike system - email me for info -



------------------------------

From: gareth@gblinux.demon.co.uk (Gareth Bult)
Subject: >Re: Can't boot Linux
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:34:36 GMT

On Wed, 13 Oct 1993 05:14:57 GMT;                                           
----da Musick Maka (jmadison@etsun.tech.iupui.edu) said:                    
>                                                                           
>In article <UgiqWG600iV1QEq3s0@andrew.cmu.edu> Kuo-Wei Chang <kc4e+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes: 
>>I can't boot the Linux on CD-ROM.                                         
                                                                            
He did, but he said it in the HELP newsgroup.                               
I've written a newsreader which does not handle cross postings like this.   
I would however like to handle them if they are 'required'.                 
Could you please explain the necessity for replying to a message whilest    
in a group to which the message does not belong?                            
Also, how do newsreaders normally handle this.....                          
At the moment mine simply says that it's a reply, but the header is not     
available... is this correct?                                               
                                                                            
TIA                                                                         
Gareth.                                                                     
                                                                            
                                                                            

------------------------------

From: gareth@gblinux.demon.co.uk (Gareth Bult)
Subject: Re: *** PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:36:28 GMT

Mr Jackson,

Please could you tell us WHO exactly you are with regards these postings...
And what exactly is your authority with regards these postings....

Just curious....

Gareth.                                                                     

------------------------------

From: dnewcomb@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Dan Newcombe)
Subject: Re: The %&#$@ speaks again -or- An apology
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 19:08:49 GMT

eric@tantalus.nrl.navy.mil (Eric Youngdale) writes:
>       I am not familiar with gopher/xmosaic - I know that the info system
> seems to have the basic capabilities that we require, but it can be a little
> tough to get the document formatted correctly.  This is not to say that we mu
> use it, just that I am not familiar with the other choices.  Something that
> would also have an X-based viewer would also be preferable, I think.

An X viewer???  So you are saying that for people to read a FAQ on how to 
get and install linux, setup X etc...  you want them to have X installed.
It's kinda a conundrum. (I hope that's the right word.)  
It would be nice, but once you have the system set up far enuff for X,
I think all that's left is GCC and network.  Then again, I haven't
read the FAQ for quite a while.

        -Dan
  
--
Dan Newcombe         dnewcomb@cybernet.cse.fau.edu      and many others...
"The fool who escaped from paradise will look over his shoulder and cry."
                                -Marillion, "Script for a Jesters Tear"
- Check out Linux - the FREE i386+ 32-bit Unixlike system - email me for info -



------------------------------

From: simmonr5387@cobra.uni.edu
Subject: re: Linux Slowly Dying Off
Date: 13 Oct 93 14:45:32 -0500

Hey, 

I think you are all missing the point of Linux and other free 
software. As I see it there are several purposes to this type of 
work. 1) to turn those end users that dont know jack about unix
into system admins that are now educated by giving them the means to 
learn without shelling out ( ohh I think the going price for sysV 
is about $1000, not including X)  2) to get out from underneath of 
the death grip of software manufacturers that have a death grip 
on the computer world. ( god I hate monopolies) 3) to increase the 
quality, and amount of information and software available by 
increasing the user base of unix systems and internetted systems. 
There are probably a hundred other reasons that I could explain but, 
for the sake of bandwith, Ill stop. 

I think it is a fatalistic attitude to say that Linux will never be 
usfull to the "end user", It seems to me that is like throwing up 
our hands and saying "I give up." If you want to make it user friendly
or whatever, dust off those old C books and start writing and writing 
until you have something to contribute. Don just sit there and bitch,
write a driver or an neat, user friendly shell that joe cool can use just
to login and read his email and use special user friendly resources. 
Or perhaps write a gui that can work decently over 9600 baud lines to 
make the user feel like he is in a simple mac. There are hundreds of
possibilities out there, for instance, why not write a program that 
will introduce the basic user to unix and teach tit to him. The point 
being, that those of you who sit in their armchairs an bitch or talk
synically about the sys without doing something about it, aught to 
redirect their posts to /dev/null.

Personally I am not going to give up, Im about to put a system on line 
that will kick the shit out of an alpha axp and i am going to SLIP it
and eventually have a BBS that Joe blow can log into that has all of the
above suggested programs available. Anyone who wants to help me, write
and let me know and we will get to work. Anyone who sits back and armchair 
flames me, will be ignored. 

PUSH ON AND DONT LET THEM WIN.

-- Rob


------------------------------


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